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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

From WhatHiFi review of Proac Studio 110:

 

"With the right system, these speakers are nothing less than spectacular"

 

"A great all-round performer with no sonic weaknesses"

 

"..when it comes to music, the Studio 110s set massively high standards"

 

"Scale is impressive, as is authority – due to a surprisingly solid bass performance.."

 


 

 

Cyrus CD8X

Benchmark DAC2 HGC

PMC TB2S-AII

Fostex TH-600

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

dimedrol wrote:
MajorFubar, unfortunately for me I bought them without audutioning relying on the internet opinions. That was my mistake, I acknowledge that.

Don't worry I've done the same in the past, including with my current speakers which to be honest wouldn't be my number one choice if I had the chance to spend the same money again.
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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

dimedrol wrote:

Steve, my personal preference is and has always been - to hear what is actually recordered. Did you hear how the real drum kick sounds? Did you hear a real double bass sound? Give it a try when you have a chance. Then we gonna talk about personal preference.

Lee Alexander would be really upset to know that Proacs removed him from the Norah Jones grammy winning debute album even though they broke up.

 

MajorFubar, unfortunately for me I bought them without audutioning relying on the internet opinions. That was my mistake, I acknowledge that.

 

 

 

 

Er, yes. I've got 3 Gibsons, a Marshall,  and a Sonor drum kit in my music room, does that count?

 

Like I said, go with your ears! The shape of the curves is totally unimportant unless you make it so.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

lindsayt wrote:

SteveR750 wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

Exactly Dimitri. It's not the amps. It's not the mains cables. It's not the room. It's not the speaker break-in. It's not the position of the moon relative to Uranus. It's the speakers. Your measurements and your ears clearly show that.

Your Adams are more tonally neutral than your Proacs. Although neither speaker is particularly good in the bass region. They are both quite a few dbs down at 40hz and they both have alarming amounts of THD below 100hz. But then one can't expect bass miracles from 6" (15 cm) mid-bass cones.

 

That's not what the FR curves show. The Adams has a bass hump - it's not as flat as the ProAc. Neither response looks anything like a lab FR sweep test of even a sub £100 decent speakers, let alone a pair of this pedigree - check the manufacturers own specs which will quote the FR at +/- 3dB limits.

However, apologies, Pedant mode <OFF> Smile I agree the issue is the speakers - the curves match what he is hearing, so as I said, it's his ears, i.e. hi personal preference!

The best advice is to perhaps chuck away the mic and curves, and go with what YOU prefer, anything else is completely irrelevant.

Dimitry's measurements do not show a bass hump in the Adams. They show a dip at 150hz. The bass at about 80hz is at a similar level to the midrange at about 1khz. Also, as already mentioned, in a large well furnished room the frequency response will be leaner than at the 1m measuring distance. Plus we don't know how well the mic is calibrated across the frequency spectrum. It's possible that the Adams are a bit on the lean side at the listening position, but significactly less lean - as in 4dbs less lean - than the Proacs.

 

Some manufacturers quote +/- 3db figures for their frequency responses. Some use +/- 6dbs. Some don't say what +/- db figure they're using. Also some manufacturers use anechoic measurements, some in room. With some manufacturers it seems that the measurements they quote are for a speaker placed on the floor, right in the corner with a +/- 9 or 12db measurement.

 

I think you need to look at the relative not absolute shape of the curves. I don't believe for a minute that both speakers are nearly 10dB up at 10K, like I said a £50 speaker could better that. Look again at the 150Hz and below. Both speakers show a dip at 150Hz, the Adams more pronounced, but in both cases most likely a room response. Below 150Hz, both speakers show a pronounced peak, again, likely the port tune resonance - my point is that the ProAc shows a more even response over that range. It's not surprising from those curves that the Adams sound more bass heavy, and I don't necessarily mean that in a negative way. Subjective assessment of the bass response and "power" is a lot more than just FR! 

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

I was listening to mine last night on a few tracks and I think it's fair to say there is a drop in the lower frequencies.. I listened to one track where playing with kick drum and tom and it sounded like the track was playing with a weird puff puff puff over the top as it couldn't pick out the thud from the kick drum and was peaking on a frequency on both the bass drum and tom.. Was really annoying. With bass heavy tracks they def don't suit punchier music.. This may be due to my interconnects restricting bass so i'm going to do some tests with different speakers and interconnects Sat morning and will report what I find on here.. I'm trying Dynaudio DM 2/7 Dynaudio X12 and Kef LS50. I think a speaker like Dynaudio dm 2/7 may be better as it has long range driver and is probably less dampened and designed for more 'lively' sound.. I hope it's not the speakers as they are beautifull and this is there only real weakness.. God knows where they got 30hz frequency responce from?!?!!!

 

I think the difference is with high end peoples argument is that they go for a 'natural' sound ie. like listening to string music unamplified as thats what the majority listen too.. It's one big learning curve

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:
This may be due to my interconnects restricting bass

:O   Hifi mags have got a helluva lot to answer for. :roll:

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

 This may be due to my interconnects restricting bass so i'm going to do some tests with different speakers and interconnects Sat morning and will report what I find on here.. I'm trying Dynaudio DM 2/7 Dynaudio X12 and Kef LS50. I think a speaker like Dynaudio dm 2/7 may be better as it has long range driver and is probably less dampened and designed for more 'lively' sound.. I hope it's not the speakers as they are beautifull and this is there only real weakness.. God knows where they got 30hz frequency responce from?!?!!!

What I/Cs are you using?

Start with the replacement of the links, and see what happens.

Make sure you pay attention to all the other factors a well.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

CnoEvil wrote:

BigColz wrote:

 This may be due to my interconnects restricting bass so i'm going to do some tests with different speakers and interconnects Sat morning and will report what I find on here.. I'm trying Dynaudio DM 2/7 Dynaudio X12 and Kef LS50. I think a speaker like Dynaudio dm 2/7 may be better as it has long range driver and is probably less dampened and designed for more 'lively' sound.. I hope it's not the speakers as they are beautifull and this is there only real weakness.. God knows where they got 30hz frequency responce from?!?!!!

What I/Cs are you using?

Start with the replacement of the links, and see what happens.

Make sure you pay attention to all the other factors a well.

 

I have Cyrus I/C from pre -> Power and a cambridge audio I/C from my living room setup from my streamer -> Pre that i used to run in and haven't had time to try others.. Going to try a variety of I/C's for both 2moz morning.. I used a Chord Cobra form Streamer -> Pre in the demo and this seemed to smooth the sound tame the ott top end and bring bass out more.. A few people have said the Cyrus is solid core and is known to restrict bass although it has good detail.. I'll report my findings on a variety of setups.. I will add a sub when i get my listening room but that might not be for a while as it will be a movie 2.1 setup as well.. If they have some jumpers there i'll take them for home dem too and see if it makes a difference.. I may get some Mark Grant I/C's for home dem to as people say this gives a big bass difference but may be ott, we'll see.. As we've said there are too many variables to say it's the speakers causing this roll off so i'm eager to hear the differences.. 

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Craig M. wrote:

BigColz wrote:
This may be due to my interconnects restricting bass

:O   Hifi mags have got a helluva lot to answer for. :roll:

 

In what respect? There are many different types or internal structure in I/Cs though i'm no expert they can affect the EQ/information/sound they send to the next component

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Because the idea that i/c's change the sound is bull.  What changes is your perception due to influences other than the sound changing.  Find me just one blind test that shows up changes in i/c's, just one.  Even Peter Belt with his crazy ideas admits that what changes is the listeners perception, not the sound itself.  I'm continually amazed that people still believe this garbage.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

I have Cyrus I/C from pre -> Power and a cambridge audio I/C from my living room setup from my streamer -> Pre that i used to run in and haven't had time to try others.. Going to try a variety of I/C's for both 2moz morning.. I used a Chord Cobra form Streamer -> Pre in the demo and this seemed to smooth the sound tame the ott top end and bring bass out more.. A few people have said the Cyrus is solid core and is known to restrict bass although it has good detail.. I'll report my findings on a variety of setups.. I will add a sub when i get my listening room but that might not be for a while as it will be a movie 2.1 setup as well.. If they have some jumpers there i'll take them for home dem too and see if it makes a difference.. I may get some Mark Grant I/C's for home dem to as people say this gives a big bass difference but may be ott, we'll see.. As we've said there are too many variables to say it's the speakers causing this roll off so i'm eager to hear the differences.. 

If your dealer can give you a variety of I/Cs at a range of prices, you should be able to pinpoint the level that gives the best VFM. My usual advice is, never spend more on cables than would bring a bigger improvement, by spending it elsewhere in the system.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Craig M. wrote:

Because the idea that i/c's change the sound is bull.  What changes is your perception due to influences other than the sound changing.  Find me just one blind test that shows up changes in i/c's, just one.  Even Peter Belt with his crazy ideas admits that what changes is the listeners perception, not the sound itself.  I'm continually amazed that people still believe this garbage.

 

Have you actually done a test? Cables can change sound massivly, thats one most people 'EQ' there kit.. Maybe you're right, i'll let you know tommorow.. Maybe I can record it on my phone and notice the difference.. If it is very obvious I can put two camparing video's on youtube and put the link on here? I'm not saying you're wrong I just don't know yet

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Of course I've done a test.  More than one.  I'm sorry to say, but the only way your test will be valid for anyone but yourself is if you can tell them apart blind.  And no-one has ever shown they can.  To help your test have a touch of validity, DO NOT let the dealer touch the volume on the amp between changes.  A very small change in volume won't sound like a volume change, it will instead sound like a change in the sound itself.  These aren't just my subjective opinions, they are well understood facts - outside audiophile circles. :wall:

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

Craig M. wrote:

Because the idea that i/c's change the sound is bull.  What changes is your perception due to influences other than the sound changing.  Find me just one blind test that shows up changes in i/c's, just one.  Even Peter Belt with his crazy ideas admits that what changes is the listeners perception, not the sound itself.  I'm continually amazed that people still believe this garbage.

Have you actually done a test? Cables can change sound massivly, thats one most people 'EQ' there kit.. Maybe you're right, i'll let you know tommorow.. Maybe I can record it on my phone and notice the difference.. If it is very obvious I can put two camparing video's on youtube and put the link on here? I'm not saying you're wrong I just don't know yet

This is a polemic argument that will lead nowhere.....except to a locked thread. We think they're deaf, and they think we're delusional...and it's not going to change. :shifty:

My advice is to try for yourself, and go with what you hear.....there are plenty of people who agree with you....but don't want to get dragged into yet another fruitless debate.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

CnoEvil wrote:

BigColz wrote:

I have Cyrus I/C from pre -> Power and a cambridge audio I/C from my living room setup from my streamer -> Pre that i used to run in and haven't had time to try others.. Going to try a variety of I/C's for both 2moz morning.. I used a Chord Cobra form Streamer -> Pre in the demo and this seemed to smooth the sound tame the ott top end and bring bass out more.. A few people have said the Cyrus is solid core and is known to restrict bass although it has good detail.. I'll report my findings on a variety of setups.. I will add a sub when i get my listening room but that might not be for a while as it will be a movie 2.1 setup as well.. If they have some jumpers there i'll take them for home dem too and see if it makes a difference.. I may get some Mark Grant I/C's for home dem to as people say this gives a big bass difference but may be ott, we'll see.. As we've said there are too many variables to say it's the speakers causing this roll off so i'm eager to hear the differences.. 

If your dealer can give you a variety of I/Cs at a range of prices, you should be able to pinpoint the level that gives the best VFM. My usual advice is, never spend more on cables than would bring a bigger improvement, by spending it elsewhere in the system.

 

I'm going to home dem 2 x Cobra and a Chorus I think.. Then I may get a 30 day trial of a Mark grant which is similar price point of cobra.. I know they're underpriced for my kit but i want to tone down the kit so it's less fatuiging. Only a test will tell me the 'right' balance. Try the lot and if i'm even 85% happy with the Cobras in both I may just buy them then consider more changes next year when i have cash as i'll only loose a little bit selling on.. I should get good money for the Cyrus I/C second hand as it's only 6 months old (and i got it at trade  Wink )

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