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dimedrol's picture
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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Don't look at the curves, look at the differences between the two. As I said, absolute values are not reliable due to the measurement conditions.

Where there's a visual difference there's obviously the difference in the sound. At 75 Hz it is 4dB. Also Proacs are 1-2dB louder between 3 and 5 kHz.

 

4 dB is something very perceptible.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Dimedrol I can hear what you're saying and it can be frustrating when you can't get bass but at 'high end' levels they use more accurate components and tuned very accurately but they also tone down bass, as said previously to create the impression of 'more detail' as the main target audience don't listen to rock/dance music.. I'm goin to try some different interconnects and combinations this weekend hopefully, I may also try some Dynaudio DM2/7 which are more 'fun' sounding and have much more bass extention and slam apparently and something like that PMC or splendors (apparently) would suit the sound you are used too/looking for much more.. I tried ATC SCM 11's which everyone recons are flat but they are very hard to drive so useless unless you got a much better amp

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

Dimedrol I can hear what you're saying and it can be frustrating when you can't get bass but at 'high end' levels they use more accurate components and tuned very accurately but they also tone down bass, as said previously to create the impression of 'more detail' as the main target audience don't listen to rock/dance music.. I'm goin to try some different interconnects and combinations this weekend hopefully, I may also try some Dynaudio DM2/7 which are more 'fun' sounding and have much more bass extention and slam apparently and something like that PMC or splendors (apparently) would suit the sound you are used too/looking for much more.. I tried ATC SCM 11's which everyone recons are flat but they are very hard to drive so useless unless you got a much better amp

If you haven't repaced the jumpers with Chord Epic links, you should try it.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

CnoEvil wrote:

BigColz wrote:

Dimedrol I can hear what you're saying and it can be frustrating when you can't get bass but at 'high end' levels they use more accurate components and tuned very accurately but they also tone down bass, as said previously to create the impression of 'more detail' as the main target audience don't listen to rock/dance music.. I'm goin to try some different interconnects and combinations this weekend hopefully, I may also try some Dynaudio DM2/7 which are more 'fun' sounding and have much more bass extention and slam apparently and something like that PMC or splendors (apparently) would suit the sound you are used too/looking for much more.. I tried ATC SCM 11's which everyone recons are flat but they are very hard to drive so useless unless you got a much better amp

If you haven't repaced the jumpers with Chord Epic links, you should try it.

 

Ahh cool.. Never seen these before may just do that as I never plan on running bi-wire cheers.. £40 not too bad really.. Do you use jumpers on your Refs? Got quite a few things to try in the next few months  :grin: Looking forward to hearing a valve pre the most.. Have you seen the new Icon LA4 mkiii for 2013? Looks very pretty with improvements and same price as mk11

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

BigColz wrote:

Ahh cool.. Never seen these before may just do that as I never plan on running bi-wire cheers.. £40 not too bad really.. Do you use jumpers on your Refs? Got quite a few things to try in the next few months  :grin: Looking forward to hearing a valve pre the most.. Have you seen the new Icon LA4 mkiii for 2013? Looks very pretty with improvements and same price as mk11

IMO. The first thing to do with a good pair of speakers (if bi/tri-wirable), is replace the standard jumpers with decent ones...it "can" make quite a difference.

In my case, the Cardas GC came in Bi or Tri-wire format....and I got a deal, which it meant it was cheaper getting the Tri-wire, than buying the Cardas links (which I otherwise would have done).

Let me know what difference it makes.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

The speakers have tuneful bass and are not stomach moving gut wrenchers. Speakers which have concert ready bass are Wilson Audio.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Last thing I would consider to tune the system is jumpers. Cause I studied physics at university. Sorry but thats naive to believe that 2cm of copper can have any audible influence on the sound.

 

Today I carried out another experiment. I brought my speakers to my old friend's house and connected to his stereo system. I used his vintage 100wpc Sony amp and his cables and his stands and all. Well, something changed, mostly because of the different room acoustics, but so familiar speakers' signature remained. I could still hear those flying highs with pretty beautiful Proac's stereo image and no slam in the low end. Whenever I expected a drum bass kick there was literally just a relaxed clap in the background. If you say that speakers of their size are not supposed to meet my requests, I would kindly recommend you to listen to Genelecs or Adams with 6.5" woofer. Well, maybe they are all hyped in the low end, but thats what sound engineers listen to when making our favourite recordings.

 

I think I will stop on that and save some money for another pair of active studio monitors. Maybe Focal or Genelec.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

dimedrol wrote:

Last thing I would consider to tune the system is jumpers. Cause I studied physics at university. Sorry but thats naive to believe that 2cm of copper can have any audible influence on the sound.

No need to be sorry.

I mentioned it, because surprising as it may seem, I've often found it makes a difference....BigColz will probably try it, so it will be interesting to see if he hears a difference.  

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

dimedrol wrote:

I think I will stop on that and save some money for another pair of active studio monitors. Maybe Focal or Genelec.

I personally think that's a wise decision.  If they are in budget I'd urge you to try the Event Opals, they're epic and you will not be disappointed by the bass.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Give them a spin with the Genelecs you have in mind.  The 8040s are around £1100 I think, bass was not an issue...!

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

I said ages ago that I didn't think you were going to get the sound you want from those speakers in your listening environment, and I still agree that changing them is the best idea yet.  But I do have to ask, why did you buy them in the first place?

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

lindsayt wrote:

Exactly Dimitri. It's not the amps. It's not the mains cables. It's not the room. It's not the speaker break-in. It's not the position of the moon relative to Uranus. It's the speakers. Your measurements and your ears clearly show that.

Your Adams are more tonally neutral than your Proacs. Although neither speaker is particularly good in the bass region. They are both quite a few dbs down at 40hz and they both have alarming amounts of THD below 100hz. But then one can't expect bass miracles from 6" (15 cm) mid-bass cones.

 

That's not what the FR curves show. The Adams has a bass hump - it's not as flat as the ProAc. Neither response looks anything like a lab FR sweep test of even a sub £100 decent speakers, let alone a pair of this pedigree - check the manufacturers own specs which will quote the FR at +/- 3dB limits.

However, apologies, Pedant mode <OFF> Smile I agree the issue is the speakers - the curves match what he is hearing, so as I said, it's his ears, i.e. hi personal preference!

The best advice is to perhaps chuck away the mic and curves, and go with what YOU prefer, anything else is completely irrelevant.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

Steve, my personal preference is and has always been - to hear what is actually recordered. Did you hear how the real drum kick sounds? Did you hear a real double bass sound? Give it a try when you have a chance. Then we gonna talk about personal preference.

Lee Alexander would be really upset to know that Proacs removed him from the Norah Jones grammy winning debute album even though they broke up.

 

MajorFubar, unfortunately for me I bought them without audutioning relying on the internet opinions. That was my mistake, I acknowledge that.

 

 

 

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

SteveR750 wrote:

lindsayt wrote:

Exactly Dimitri. It's not the amps. It's not the mains cables. It's not the room. It's not the speaker break-in. It's not the position of the moon relative to Uranus. It's the speakers. Your measurements and your ears clearly show that.

Your Adams are more tonally neutral than your Proacs. Although neither speaker is particularly good in the bass region. They are both quite a few dbs down at 40hz and they both have alarming amounts of THD below 100hz. But then one can't expect bass miracles from 6" (15 cm) mid-bass cones.

 

That's not what the FR curves show. The Adams has a bass hump - it's not as flat as the ProAc. Neither response looks anything like a lab FR sweep test of even a sub £100 decent speakers, let alone a pair of this pedigree - check the manufacturers own specs which will quote the FR at +/- 3dB limits.

However, apologies, Pedant mode <OFF> Smile I agree the issue is the speakers - the curves match what he is hearing, so as I said, it's his ears, i.e. hi personal preference!

The best advice is to perhaps chuck away the mic and curves, and go with what YOU prefer, anything else is completely irrelevant.

Dimitry's measurements do not show a bass hump in the Adams. They show a dip at 150hz. The bass at about 80hz is at a similar level to the midrange at about 1khz. Also, as already mentioned, in a large well furnished room the frequency response will be leaner than at the 1m measuring distance. Plus we don't know how well the mic is calibrated across the frequency spectrum. It's possible that the Adams are a bit on the lean side at the listening position, but significactly less lean - as in 4dbs less lean - than the Proacs.

 

Some manufacturers quote +/- 3db figures for their frequency responses. Some use +/- 6dbs. Some don't say what +/- db figure they're using. Also some manufacturers use anechoic measurements, some in room. With some manufacturers it seems that the measurements they quote are for a speaker placed on the floor, right in the corner with a +/- 9 or 12db measurement.

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RE: Entry level amps aren't capable to drive Proac Studio 110

dimedrol wrote:

I think I will stop on that and save some money for another pair of active studio monitors. Maybe Focal or Genelec.

 

Agree this is a wise decision.

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