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Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

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matt49's picture
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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

pauln wrote:

That's interesting and makes sense.

I'm glad that was helpful.

pauln wrote:

I thought that it would be straightforward in that you would sit someone in a chair and ask them which was which - if the differences are so apparent (or night and day). Would that not count as a valid test then?

It depends how robust you want your results to be. As I said in an earlier post, if you're happy for a psychologist to measure the performance of an amp, then you'll be happy for an engineer to conduct a blind test.

Matt

 

 

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

matt49 wrote:

pauln wrote:

That's interesting and makes sense.

I'm glad that was helpful.

pauln wrote:

I thought that it would be straightforward in that you would sit someone in a chair and ask them which was which - if the differences are so apparent (or night and day). Would that not count as a valid test then?

It depends how robust you want your results to be. As I said in an earlier post, if you're happy for a psychologist to measure the performance of an amp, then you'll be happy for an engineer to conduct a blind test.

Matt

 

 

Just out of curiousity, how confident are you that you could "pass" a properly conducted abx test on two different amps? And how different would they have to be? Same conditions as the Harbeth challenge.

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

CnoEvil wrote:

 

What I don't do is read what other people think, and then pedal it as fact.

I read what people have measured or what they know about the subject - I'm confident that Alan Shaw knows about speakers and electronics and so no, I don't feel that I am pedalling other peoples thoughts as facts at all. I just re-read my first post and actually, they are all my own thoughts, apart from the assertation that a Watt is a Watt. After that it's all been about countering other peoples arguments.

How do you learn if not by reading? Did you prove to yourself that the earth was round before you told your children it was? Newton wrote down his laws of motion we read them and we learn from them. He also backed things up with measurements and empirical observations, not subjective feelings.

 

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

pauln wrote:

How do you learn if not by reading? 

You can learn by watching, practicing, experiencing, simulating and doing.

The problem with confining it solely to reading, is that one is naturally drawn to the viewpoint that most closely aligns itself with one's own beliefs, and concentrate on that......giving the alternative POV little more than a cursory glance.

Until you go out and listen to a whole variety of kit at different prices, the only opinion you can realistically give, is that of others.....it just depends on who you choose to believe.

The sole purpose of a hifi is the replication of music, which is in itself, a subjective experience.....by trying to reduce it to a set of measurements misses the point imo.

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

It is illogical that if the differences are as big as some claim there's no actual evidence to back it up. 

 

It is easy to explain why a speaker or record player will sound different from another but there doesn't seem to be any explanation of how and why an (adequately powered) amp will sound different other than an assumption that better components are used so it must sound better.

 

'Well I heard it' is completely redundant because I could pull up 'evidence' of that kind about all sorts of snake oil products that cannot possibly work.

 

I have a completely open mind on the subject but not so open I'm willing to throw money around without some justification.

 

 

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

pauln, you seem to think that it is a trivial exercise to produce an amplifier that is a 'straight line with gain' and therefore any deviation from must be the manufacturer 'messing with the sound'?

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

CnoEvil wrote:

Until you go out and listen to a whole variety of kit at different prices, the only opinion you can realistically give, is that of others.....it just depends on who you choose to believe.

As I've already said, I have done. Did you really think I've not listened to anything? Did you not read my post where I said why I'd changed my opinion about HiFi?

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

MakkaPakka wrote:

'Well I heard it' is completely redundant because I could pull up 'evidence' of that kind about all sorts of snake oil products that cannot possibly work.

......as is, "I haven't heard it, but someone on a forum says so."

IMO. Until people realize that it's all subjective ie. from what you hear, to what you like and to what value you put on any perceived gain.......and so this can only be ascertained by finding one's own path and set of rules.

 

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

John Duncan wrote:

pauln, you seem to think that it is a trivial exercise to produce an amplifier that is a 'straight line with gain' and therefore any deviation from must be the manufacturer 'messing with the sound'?

Did you read the rest of the post?

You want to cherry pick one phrase out of 4 or 5 paragraphs and use it out of context to give a completely different impression of what I said?

Wonderful.

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

pauln wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Until you go out and listen to a whole variety of kit at different prices, the only opinion you can realistically give, is that of others.....it just depends on who you choose to believe.

As I've already said, I have done. Did you really think I've not listened to anything? Did you not read my post where I said why I'd changed my opinion about HiFi?

If you have heard  Valve, Hybrid, Class A , AB, B or D amps in a variety of price ranges, up to high end, then you are right; but the impression you give is that you have only heard a handful of amps.......which is btw, not meant to be in any way condescending, or indeed as any sort of criticism. 

It's just that I believe that meaningful statements are problematical unless they come from personal experience. 

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

CnoEvil wrote:

 this can only be ascertained by finding one's own path and set of rules.

 

Either there is a difference or there is not. The answer is, universally, either yes or no.

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

MakkaPakka wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

 this can only be ascertained by finding one's own path and set of rules.

Either there is a difference or there is not. The answer is, universally, either yes or no.

Your logic is unshakable......now getting agreement on the difference................ banging head against wall

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

You've jumped ahead to the point where a difference has been established. I'm still stuck on the start line waiting for some evidence or a reasonably compelling argument of the difference.

As I said on my first post in the thread - I want to believe!  Someone please persuade me so I can go shopping guilt-free in the knowledge I'm actually going to be achieving an upgrade.

 

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

CnoEvil wrote:

pauln wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Until you go out and listen to a whole variety of kit at different prices, the only opinion you can realistically give, is that of others.....it just depends on who you choose to believe.

As I've already said, I have done. Did you really think I've not listened to anything? Did you not read my post where I said why I'd changed my opinion about HiFi?

If you have heard  Valve, Hybrid, Class A , AB, B or D amps in a variety of price ranges, up to high end, then you are right; but the impression you give is that you have only heard a handful of amps.......which is btw, not meant to be in any way condescending, or indeed as any sort of criticism. 

It's just that I believe that meaningful statements are problematical unless they come from personal experience. 

Measurements do count, you know, CNO, they explain what you hear. I don't think, having  heard a lot of amps, that differences are that great, certainly far less than turntable/cartridge combinations and way less than speakers. You need a powerful amp for lots of speakers, but, other than that, you'd be pushing to hear differences in any form of blind testing, irrespective of price.

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RE: Do more expensive amplifiers make a difference?

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Measurements do count, you know, CNO, they explain what you hear. I don't think, having  heard a lot of amps, that differences are that great, certainly far less than turntable/cartridge combinations and way less than speakers. You need a powerful amp for lots of speakers, but, other than that, you'd be pushing to hear differences in any form of blind testing, irrespective of price.

Of course measurements count, but they are not the "be all and end all" of what you may like.....you're a knowledgeable Bod, so you probably agree to some extent.

The natural tendancy is for people to want a "quick fix," as it saves putting the work in.

 

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