How do you know that scientists fully understand how our hearing works?
I was speaking to my brother-in-law about this two evenings ago. He's a Royal Society professor and one of the world's leading experts on the brain physiology of sense perception.
He listed a number of areas in which he reckoned we're miles away from understanding how hearing works: frequency resolution, phase, complex harmonics, binaurality etc etc.
Alternatively you can look on wikipedia and give yourself the impression you understand how things work ...
What classical music are you listening to?
Are you claiming that they don't? Fletcher Munson curves? Do you think they are wrong? You might as well just ask how scientists know anything at all.
:shakes head in disbelief:
If your ears can detect depth. 3dness, scale, etc. etc. then why can't a couple of good quality omni-directional microphones hooked up to a recording device?
Level matching means ensuring that the two things you're testing are at the same volume. You cannot compare the relative merits of two sounds if one is louder than the other. I would have thought that was obvious
sorry to drag this back up, but real life...you all know how it is sometimes.
Anyhoo considering CD/file/record/tape data is fixed and source output is fixed......Makkapakka, no - you try recording with a omni-directional mic, then come back here and tell us if it sounds anything like what you hear coming from your speakers, in your room...... prrrft...
And level matching is stupid, if you are testing two devices against each other then you test them to their limits, to the point just before distortion on the very edge of integrity to the point of..... you get the idea. It's this crazy logic that makes me not take these 'hifi' test seriously. How can anyone consider a test valid if the kit is working well within its spec, whats the point?
if you compare say a 200watt Krell with the Cyrus 6a for example what the Krell could do with a pair of speakers will never be known if its limited to the spec of the Cyrus 6a 40watts - and that would be the basis for someone to claim both amps sound the same?......really?
Why you do you think Harbeth have worded their challenge so carefully.
So playing 1 amp at 40w and 1 amp at 200w will be a good comparison? As for playing at their limits that does not always work either, some amps sounds poor at their max. volume while others sound OK. How about playing them at a normal listening level?
I am pretty sure that scientists do not 'fully understand' how our hearing works.
I am equally sure that they know enough about how our hearing works to understand that it both quite remarkably sensitive, has incredible resolving power yet in other area is unreliable and easily fooled. I do not have a problem with that.
We do so many shows in a row,
And these towns all look the same,
We just pass the time in our hotel room
And wander 'round backstage,
Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,
And we remember why we came.
I'm not saying any particular scientific theories are incorrect, but do remember that most are just that - theories.
You can :shake your head in disbelief: all you like! If scientists know absolutely everything, why are they still employed? Why are they still being paid to further research, to improve understanding of everything around us?
David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, Coventry
Yes and many people have been fooled in demos by the level (volume) being different when comparing systems. Its an old trick.
Do you actually know what a "theory" means in scientific terms?
It is a little different from the bloke at the bar spouting "I have a theory.........'
Yup, but much of what is out there may not be 100% fact. Due to research, there's always something new we're finding out about the universe and its contents. If scientists knew absolutely everything about the human body, there'd be no disease or illness. Or at least, there'd be no incurable diseases.
Anyway, back on topic - yes, amplifiers can make a difference
What I meant was you could record it and there would be a difference - it's not about making an accurate recording, explaining it or understanding it - just showing that something is different.
I don't know exactly what Harbeth was specifying when it said level matching but in most tests that are carried out (like on the matrix site) the only level matching is the volume.
this post makes no sense in the context of what I said......
I suppose you must be a troll. I can't believe that someone posting here about these things doesn't understand how our ears work; specifically regarding their sensitivity to different frequencies as in equal loudness curves. Or do you just reject all science?
Er...no, you're the troll & a rubbish one at that.
and what are you on about, I'm talking about performance and how it can relate to what we hear from our equ this as nothing to do with science, level matching amps IS stupid.
David, you and I are on the same wavelength.......
Yep. You don't know what a scientific theory is.
And just because 'scientists don't know everything' doesn't mean you or I can fill in the gaps with any old nonsense and claim validity for it.
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Like I said earlier with the top gear anology.
Play a 40w amp at its peek just before distortion and a 200w amp to the same point is the only way you will now how these things truely perform and will show you the difference in their performance. This does not mean you have to play these things at full whack all the time. But you want to see the difference all those exotic components and inspired engineering make then let it drive your speakers.
allow yourself to hear the difference - sitting there level matching what sort of foolishness is that?
'Normal' is personal but for those claiming all amps sound the same then setting proviso limiting the "better" amp - seriously, wake up
Quite right, does not have a clue about how science works.
To use David's own analogy, perhaps we should throw out modern medicine because we do not know how "absolutely everything about the human body works".
Thompson, quite inspired, do keep it up......
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