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Thompsonuxb's picture
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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

boggit wrote:

An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. 

 

Exactly......

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Alears wrote:

I am none the wiser.

Yet you maintain a computer optical drive to be inferior to a CD player?

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Thompsonuxb wrote:

Are you sure you heard a difference?

Are you sure I didn't?

Now stop stirring the pot, have a nice cup of Horlicks, and go to bed. You may feel less quarrelsome in the morning.  ;)

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Alears wrote:

As far as I was aware data is stored on the CD as a series of 'pits' . These are read by the laser mechanism in either a CD player  or in a CD-ROM drawer of a computer.

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer. Smile

Right.......

So.

A cd player that has to read all the data in one pass, irrespective of damage, misalignment, dust or other factors, then apply error correction circuitry to interpolate (informed guesswork) for missing data is, better than a computer drive that makes multiple passes, collects all the data and then performs a 'checksum' calculation to veryfy that the data is 100% accurate.

Just because the optical drive is in a cd player rather than a computer.

Got it...!

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

CnoEvil wrote:

Thompsonuxb wrote:

Are you sure you heard a difference?

Are you sure I didn't?

Now stop stirring the pot, have a nice cup of Horlicks, and go to bed. You may feel less quarrelsome in the morning.  ;)

 

lol..... goodnight.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Overdose wrote:

Alears wrote:

I am none the wiser.

Yet you maintain a computer optical drive to be inferior to a CD player?

I would say a good Phillips CD Pro mechanism is better than your average Taiwanese DVD-RW drive yes.

 

Motto: Never pay full price for anything, there is always room to haggle!

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

CnoEvil wrote:

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

ABXed?  :poke:

(I'm just kidding guys. Ignore this comment and carry on as you were Smile )

Hi-Fi - Yamaha RX-V667 > AVI DM5

Head-Fi - Epiphany Acoustics EHP-O2Di > Sennheisser HD700

Portable - Sony NWZ-A847 > Westone UM3x

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

steve_1979 wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

ABXed?  :poke:

(I'm just kidding guys. Ignore this comment and carry on as you were Smile )

Do we have to? Smile

 

Motto: Never pay full price for anything, there is always room to haggle!

Tom Evans Audio Design amplification / Acoustic Zen speakers.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

boggit wrote:

This only applies when you rip a CD. An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. A normal player plays data in real time no buffering in order for data correction hence skipping.

Data on a cd is recorded in a series of 'packets', the data in each packet contains redundancies, ie it has more data than is actually needed to reconstruct the signal with perfect accuracy. You can mis read some data and still get a perfect output, but real time players can miss a lot of data, more than can be handled by the redundancies, hence the need for error correction.

A computer drive will go back time and time again (if needed) over the same section until it gets enough data to be 100% accurate, error correction is not required.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

davedotco wrote:

A computer drive will go back time and time again (if needed) over the same section until it gets enough data to be 100% accurate, error correction is not required.

Until the disc is damaged and then it is. Error correction is a selectable option when ripping.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

davedotco wrote:

boggit wrote:

This only applies when you rip a CD. An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. A normal player plays data in real time no buffering in order for data correction hence skipping.

Data on a cd is recorded in a series of 'packets', the data in each packet contains redundancies, ie it has more data than is actually needed to reconstruct the signal with perfect accuracy. You can mis read some data and still get a perfect output, but real time players can miss a lot of data, more than can be handled by the redundancies, hence the need for error correction.

A computer drive will go back time and time again (if needed) over the same section until it gets enough data to be 100% accurate, error correction is not required.

Whatever, back to the OP.

When I get my nice new CD and put it in my cheap Taiwanese DVD-RW mechanism and use my favourite software to rip it to a flac file it does so first time (reporting no errors as usual) and I'm a happy bunny.

So when i then play this flac file back through the same DAC that I have my CD transport connected to I am not at all surprised to find it sounds no better. I just have the data in a different format.

 

Motto: Never pay full price for anything, there is always room to haggle!

Tom Evans Audio Design amplification / Acoustic Zen speakers.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

To put it simply well ill try, when you RIP a CD the software makes sure it writes to the HD exactly what it read from your Fleetwood Mac CD if makes a mistake it will try again untill it gets it right.

If your playing the same CD on your music CD player you may hear a skip or somthing which you dont want to record.

So yes in theory its Snake oil!! You wont actually get better music quality as we know it.

Sonos ZP80 Leema Pulse PMC DB1i

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Thompsonuxb wrote:
Just been catching up.... Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD. How does that work? Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

You ask a question & folk here answer either directly or with links. You seem to go into denial however. You can lead a horse to water but sure as hell, can't make it drink. If playing a CD always resulted in exactly the same stream of ones & zeros, why would the process need pretty sophisticated error correction? It's not a case of ripping adding to the original data but recovering more of the original data. Well, so goes the theory - some ripping programs are supposedly better than others: EAC has a reputation for extracting that stream of ones & zeros better than others by repeatedly reading the same sequence until the checksum matches or is as close to the original as it can get. It may be a slower rip but more accurate.

Some say that some transports seem to be better than others (feeding the same DAC). I don't know but most ripping is done by PC or laptop transports anyway. However, these transports are able to read data at 25 - 50x normal playback speed.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Overdose wrote:

davedotco wrote:

A computer drive will go back time and time again (if needed) over the same section until it gets enough data to be 100% accurate, error correction is not required.

Until the disc is damaged and then it is. Error correction is a selectable option when ripping.

I rip without, normal discs used and abused in the normal manner, and get around a couple of percent failure. 

Given the redundances in the data on the disc I find my ripping software digs out sufficient data to achieve an accurate checksum, I can recall having to use error correction on one, maybe two occasions.

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RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Alears wrote:

davedotco wrote:

boggit wrote:

This only applies when you rip a CD. An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. A normal player plays data in real time no buffering in order for data correction hence skipping.

Data on a cd is recorded in a series of 'packets', the data in each packet contains redundancies, ie it has more data than is actually needed to reconstruct the signal with perfect accuracy. You can mis read some data and still get a perfect output, but real time players can miss a lot of data, more than can be handled by the redundancies, hence the need for error correction.

A computer drive will go back time and time again (if needed) over the same section until it gets enough data to be 100% accurate, error correction is not required.

Whatever, back to the OP.

When I get my nice new CD and put it in my cheap Taiwanese DVD-RW mechanism and use my favourite software to rip it to a flac file it does so first time (reporting no errors as usual) and I'm a happy bunny.

So when i then play this flac file back through the same DAC that I have my CD transport connected to I am not at all surprised to find it sounds no better. I just have the data in a different format.

This is how it should be, and with new discs, usually is.

On older, less than perfect discs there is an advantage in ripping the disc as you may get more of the data, that is pretty straightforward.

Whether or not it makes an audible difference or not, that is another matter and can only really be determined by testing.

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