Have your say & ask the experts!

Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

77 replies [Last post]
Thompsonuxb's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 794

Just been catching up....

Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD.

How does that work?

Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

davedotco's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 2339
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Thompsonuxb wrote:

Just been catching up....

Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD. How does that work? Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

But not catching up enough it would seem.

Try researching, real time scanning v multiple scans, error correction circuits and 'check sum' verification.

__________________

We do so many shows in a row,

And these towns all look the same,

We just pass the time in our hotel room

And wander 'round backstage,

Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,

And we remember why we came.

Jackson Browne

Crocodile's picture
Offline
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
Posts: 728
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

The theory is that a CDP has to correct errors in real time. Excessive errors could result in data loss.

During the ripping process error correction can take as long as necessary, so the rip could end up recovering data that a CDP can't.

Thompsonuxb's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 794
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

davedotco wrote:

Thompsonuxb wrote:

Just been catching up....

Anyhoo, came across some crazy talk, crazy folk taking about a CD rip to file sounding better than the original CD. How does that work? Unless the streamer is doing something to the data how can a rip sound better than the original cd?

But not catching up enough it would seem.

Try researching, real time scanning v multiple scans, error correction circuits and 'check sum' verification.

 

What???   if data is data, sample a bit 10x it won't improve it - unless your device is 'colouring ' the sound how is it going to improve it over the original.

Anolog to digital, yes there is an argument as hiss and bloom and many of the problems associated with anolog can be eleminated but bit to bit, 1 to 1 how can you improve it? 

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 11418
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....
__________________

"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again."  André Gide

Thompsonuxb's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 794
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Crocodile wrote:

The theory is that a CDP has to correct errors in real time. Excessive errors could result in data loss.

During the ripping process error correction can take as long as necessary, so the rip could end up recovering data that a CDP can't.

Errrr, no. ...... ripping a scratched cd to your pc it will rip the errors/scratches if its 1 to 1, bit for bit.

which device can rip scratched cds perfectly and how much is it. I have a John Legend cd with a hugh scratch on it caused by my daughter dropping a cup on it when she was a toddler...and I really liked that cd you know.

Thompsonuxb's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 794
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

CnoEvil wrote:

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_pla...

 

 

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

davedotco's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 2339
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

CnoEvil wrote:

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_pla...

Unusually clear and concise, for Linn.....!

The only addition I would make to the "Reading the data" section is that the error correction may not be perfect in some cases so the 'extrapolation of the good data' may cause errors which might be audible. 

I have heard some cheap plyers that have fearsome error correction so they will hardly ever skip or refuse to play a disc but the sound was pretty poor, noticeably harsh or gritty.

__________________

We do so many shows in a row,

And these towns all look the same,

We just pass the time in our hotel room

And wander 'round backstage,

Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,

And we remember why we came.

Jackson Browne

Al ears's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 2434
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

As far as I was aware data is stored on the CD as a series of 'pits' . These are read by the laser mechanism in either a CD player  or in a CD-ROM drawer of a computer.

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer. Smile

__________________

Origin Live Aurora Gold+Illustrious Mk2 arm+Zyx R100-02/Stello CDT200+Stello DA220 dac/Tom Evans Groove Anniversary phono amp/Tom Evans Vibe preamp/Linear A power amp/Acoustic Zen Adagios/Chord cables/Oppo 105EU.

davedotco's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Apr 2013
Posts: 2339
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Thompsonuxb wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_pla...

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

On real time, ie normal cd transports, that is exactly what you do have, it's called error correction.

__________________

We do so many shows in a row,

And these towns all look the same,

We just pass the time in our hotel room

And wander 'round backstage,

Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,

And we remember why we came.

Jackson Browne

boggit's picture
Offline
Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 226
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

This only applies when you rip a CD. An algorithm checks the data read and then written is correct. If not it will try again. All it does is make sure no errors creep in. It can not perform miracles and if the data is damaged ie not there because of a bad scratch it will give up. In the case of a data CD it will display an error message. A normal player plays data in real time no buffering in order for data correction hence skipping.

__________________

Sonos ZP80 - Leema Pulse MKII - PMC DB1i

ZP100 - Mordaunt Short MS 3.10

Play 5 Audioengine A2 Pioneer PDP436SXE

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 11418
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Thompsonuxb wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_pla...

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

 

__________________

"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again."  André Gide

Thompsonuxb's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 794
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Alears wrote:

As far as I was aware data is stored on the CD as a series of 'pits' . These are read by the laser mechanism in either a CD player  or in a CD-ROM drawer of a computer.

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer. Smile

 

Exactly... how is a Ripping device going to differenciate between good or bad data - audio or otherwise.

Thompsonuxb's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Feb 2012
Posts: 794
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

CnoEvil wrote:

Thompsonuxb wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

Here is what Linn have to say about it: http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Why_Linn_DS_is_the_best_way_to_pla...

prrrft....they're selling us snake oil.

you can only rip the data available on a disk. Unless you have a device stuffing bits in were its corrupted, then thats poppicok.

what these people are suggesting is its not 1 for 1 bit but 1 for 1.8795 bits....thats rubbish.

I heard the Linn Majik CDP vs Linn Majik DS......the difference was so clear cut, that it is really no surprise that they stopped producing CDPs.

 

 

Are you sure you heard a difference?

Al ears's picture
Offline
Joined: 23 Nov 2008
Posts: 2434
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

I am none the wiser.

Data is transferred to CD as a medium much like pressing a groove in vinyl.

Can anyone explain what exactly is an 'error' and how is it recognised as one?

dit dit dit / dah dah dah / dit dit dit

__________________

Origin Live Aurora Gold+Illustrious Mk2 arm+Zyx R100-02/Stello CDT200+Stello DA220 dac/Tom Evans Groove Anniversary phono amp/Tom Evans Vibe preamp/Linear A power amp/Acoustic Zen Adagios/Chord cables/Oppo 105EU.

Overdose's picture
Offline
Joined: 8 Feb 2008
Posts: 3136
RE: Crazy talk about CD v Rips....

Alears wrote:

How exactly a 'read head' decides what is 'bad' data that shouldn't be there is something else altogether but if I had to trust something to read the data off an audio CD I know it wouldn't be attached to a computer. Smile

Yeah, those computer drives, they're rubbish at data reading and transfer they are. I'd never have one in my computer, just imagine what could happen if the data was all messed up and stuff.

__________________

Mac mini > AVI ADM9Ts