Have your say & ask the experts!

Correct wiring of jumper cables

184 replies [Last post]
shadders's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 130
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

rob100 wrote:

shadders wrote:

Or is it you have made each change, and confirmed to yourself that each change was for the better, without realising that if taken as a whole - your system really does not sound any different than it did before ALL the changes ?

At a recent show I listened to a Russ Andrews demonstration.  He hooked up a 2nd hand £300 system with "freebie" cables, then swapped the cables for mid range ones, and then £20,000 worth of cables.

There is no doubt in my mind that both the mid range cabes and the exotic cables made the system sound better then the freebies and to be fair, it did sound good with £20k's worth of cable.

But I couldn't help but think, how would it sound compared to a £20k hifi wired up with £300 of 2nd hand cables? puzzled

The point of the demo was to show that better cables do make a difference.  With my ears Russ achieved this, but I think there is a level where you are better upgrading your equipment.

Anyway, apologies, this is off topic and not adressing the OPs questin about different terminals.  My view on that, is that if it really makes a difference as stated above, you should rewire the internal cabes and single wire the speakers.

Hi,

With regards to the £20k cables - how did you know that it was the £20k cables that sounded so good ?

In this forum post - is a link to audioquest where the article (marketing literature) effectively states you have to wire up your speaker with red positive treble, and black negative bass. There is no technical basis for this - and none was stated in the article. Why does the ground connection direct to the bass and positive connection to the treble matter ?

They are linked by the cable or metal plate. The positive connection actually goes negative as a voltage too - the amplifier output is generally referenced to ground which is the black terminal.

So you are told to connect the speaker this way, by what people believe are experts, and you hear the difference you are supposed to hear.

For expensive cables, you are generally told that they have a special design, incorporate special materials, have special properties, building you up to an expectation - which everyone seems to hear.

Has anyone ever tried to convince themselves that they do not hear a difference to negate the expectation they are intended to have since they are told there is a difference, whether expensive cables, connection to speaker terminals etc ?.

Regards,

Shadders.

__________________

Vizzage's picture
Offline
Joined: 1 Aug 2009
Posts: 103
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

With any snake oil, I find the best way to see if it really works is to try it, enjoy the benefits for a couple of weeks till you're completely used to it, then switch back to your old solution. Is it really worse? You are certainly in a position to judge, knowing them both as you do. If it seems worse, it probably is. Sometimes it might be different, not worse. Sometimes you might actually prefer it. Sometimes it actually is worse. 

__________________

SRM-tech Rega P3/GL2400     Talk Electronics             Castle Howard

Rega Planet CD player       >    Hurricane/Tornado/   >  speakers with

Denon TU-1800 DAB/FM         Whirlwind amplifiers      Tellurium Q Black

shadders's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 130
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

Hi,

I am not saying it is snake oil, but there was a report hifi plus i think 2004 someone referred to, where they omitted results of a very expensive cable (£5k) since the results were not as they expected.

For the bi-wiring and cable connection changes on the speaker terminal (black to bass, red to treble, linked with wire/plate) - it could have been the movement of the speaker and the focal point changing, or the room acoustics and the movement of the speaker affecting the sound - just do not know.

So was it the change in speaker wiring that caused the difference ?

People think it is as their mind is focussed on that change.

Regards,

Shadders.

__________________

Baldrick1's picture
Offline
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 112
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

shadders wrote:

So you are told to connect the speaker this way, by what people believe are experts, and you hear the difference you are supposed to hear.

No, not true...in my case.  I made the change with a healthy dose of sceptism (because the manual for the speakers clearly state the way that one is supposed to single wire them). 

No one told my OH what I had done to the speaker connection or what she was expected to hear (she is not interested in the technical and tends to avoid being around when I am 'messing' with things)...she just noticed there was a difference when she played some of her favourite music that previously she had found a tad too much base on, etc.  She heard the difference she heard and then was told what had occurred.

That confirmed to me what I had heard.

__________________

Rotel RA-11 | Technics SL-P333 | Rotel RT-11 | Technics SL-L1 | KEF Q300 | Grado SR80i | Atlas & QED interconnects

shadders's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 130
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

Baldrick1 wrote:

shadders wrote:

So you are told to connect the speaker this way, by what people believe are experts, and you hear the difference you are supposed to hear.

No, not true...in my case.  I made the change with a healthy dose of sceptism (because the manual for the speakers clearly state the way that one is supposed to single wire them). 

No one told my OH what I had done to the speaker connection or what she was expected to hear (she is not interested in the technical and tends to avoid being around when I am 'messing' with things)...she just noticed there was a difference when she played some of her favourite music that previously she had found a tad too much base on, etc.  She heard the difference she heard and then was told what had occurred.

That confirmed to me what I had heard.

Hi,

So you moved the speaker to complete the connections changes ?

How do we know that this was not the cause of the change ?

Why would anyone want to go to a speaker cable demonstration ? In attending, there must be some form of expectation that there is a difference - however slight. So you are then looking for a difference (or rather hearing for a difference).

On another forum, DBT was stated to be an audio blunting tool - because it gives the results they did not want. I would prefer to use DBT to prove the original posters statement.

You may have heard a difference - as did the other person - again, could have been the speaker movement, or another factor.

If hearing is so refined that such small changes are heard (speaker terminal wiring changes) as stated by the original poster and others - then it could have been the speaker movement, and not the cable changes.  

Regards,

Shadders.

__________________

Vizzage's picture
Offline
Joined: 1 Aug 2009
Posts: 103
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

Hey Shadders, yes agree - soz wasn't actually meaning to imply that that in particular was snake oil, I just meant with any suspect / minimal tweak. Cheers!

__________________

SRM-tech Rega P3/GL2400     Talk Electronics             Castle Howard

Rega Planet CD player       >    Hurricane/Tornado/   >  speakers with

Denon TU-1800 DAB/FM         Whirlwind amplifiers      Tellurium Q Black

shadders's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 130
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

Vizzage wrote:

Hey Shadders, yes agree - soz wasn't actually meaning to imply that that in particular was snake oil, I just meant with any suspect / minimal tweak. Cheers!

Hi,

Thanks. beauty, eh

Regards,

Shadders.

__________________

Baldrick1's picture
Offline
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 112
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

shadders wrote:

So you moved the speaker to complete the connections changes ?

How do we know that this was not the cause of the change ?

Because I DID NOT move the speakers to effect the changes. doh!

shadders wrote:

Why would anyone want to go to a speaker cable demonstration ? In attending, there must be some form of expectation that there is a difference - however slight. So you are then looking for a difference (or rather hearing for a difference).

You might but some of us have open minds or go into these things with a healthy dose of scepticism.  I do.  You obviously do not (if you did go into these things).

shadders wrote:

On another forum, DBT was stated to be an audio blunting tool - because it gives the results they did not want. I would prefer to use DBT to prove the original posters statement.

Then why don't you?

shadders wrote:

You may have heard a difference - as did the other person - again, could have been the speaker movement, or another factor.

Not so as, as per previously stated, the speakers where not moved...so what other factor might you be thinking of). Wink

shadders wrote:

If hearing is so refined that such small changes are heard (speaker terminal wiring changes) as stated by the original poster and others - then it could have been the speaker movement, and not the cable changes.  

For the third and final time...NOT in my case, as the speakers where not moved/the changes were effected without movement of the speakers (and don't ask for photos of how that was possible...just trust me on the fact that moving two bananas about 2-3 inches in a vertical direction, from one binding post to another does not require the removal men in Tongue )

Regards

Balders

__________________

Rotel RA-11 | Technics SL-P333 | Rotel RT-11 | Technics SL-L1 | KEF Q300 | Grado SR80i | Atlas & QED interconnects

shadders's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 130
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

Baldrick1 wrote:

shadders wrote:

So you moved the speaker to complete the connections changes ?

How do we know that this was not the cause of the change ?

Because I DID NOT move the speakers to effect the changes. doh!

shadders wrote:

Why would anyone want to go to a speaker cable demonstration ? In attending, there must be some form of expectation that there is a difference - however slight. So you are then looking for a difference (or rather hearing for a difference).

You might but some of us have open minds or go into these things with a healthy dose of scepticism.  I do.  You obviously do not (if you did go into these things).

shadders wrote:

On another forum, DBT was stated to be an audio blunting tool - because it gives the results they did not want. I would prefer to use DBT to prove the original posters statement.

Then why don't you?

shadders wrote:

You may have heard a difference - as did the other person - again, could have been the speaker movement, or another factor.

Not so as, as per previously stated, the speakers where not moved...so what other factor might you be thinking of). Wink

shadders wrote:

If hearing is so refined that such small changes are heard (speaker terminal wiring changes) as stated by the original poster and others - then it could have been the speaker movement, and not the cable changes.  

For the third and final time...NOT in my case, as the speakers where not moved/the changes were effected without movement of the speakers (and don't ask for photos of how that was possible...just trust me on the fact that moving two bananas about 2-3 inches in a vertical direction, from one binding post to another does not require the removal men in Tongue )

Regards

Balders

Hi,

Ok - you state you did not move the speakers - but this does not discount that for others this is not the case, and does not discount another factor - the fact that i have not presented it, does not mean that it does not exist.

On the speaker cable demonstration - i have changed cables albeit at the low end of the cost spectrum - and heard no difference. From understanding the principles of cable effects connecting a signal source to a load - transmission line theory and electronic/circuit theory - i would not expect there to be a difference that could be heard. As such, a claim that i do not have an open mind is in error.

I have an open mind to the theory to be presented as to why cables would make a difference, but since no new theory that has been ratified by professional peers why cables produce a different sound, that i have not heard a difference, and theory indicates there is no difference that can be determined by the human ear, i accept that there is no difference.

On the DBT - i do not have the resources to conduct this - but my point is that some people discount scientific methods when the results they receive are not want they want. If DBT had produced results that speaker cables, speaker connectivity does sound different - i would accept that and hopefully read papers as to why that effect occurs.

DBT is a proven technique - used in all aspects of science.

Again, i am not discounting that you heard a change - or perceived a change - but we also need to acknowledge that there are the psychological effects we are all prone to - and these effects are proven, and affect people listening to audio. You make a change, you expect a change, you perceive a change.

If this is not yourself, then ok.

Regards,

Shadders.

__________________

rob100's picture
Offline
Joined: 26 Jun 2010
Posts: 29
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

shadders wrote:

 

Hi,

With regards to the £20k cables - how did you know that it was the £20k cables that sounded so good ?

 

A/B testing with same music, same equipment, same positioning, only change was cable (power leads, interconnects and speaker cables).

The demonstration was designed to highlight that cables do make a difference, even in budget older systems.  To that extent it was a success, but I don't think even Russ Andrews would advocate spending £20k on cables for a £300 2nd hand system.

My own view...  cables do make a difference, but my money's better spent on equipment.

Tring to bring the thread back to the OP.  I use van damme 6mm speaker cable to my woofer terminals (because these are closest to the floor) I then use jumpers made from the same cable to the tweeters.  I choose this cable because I believe it to be a great value cable at a reasonable price.

I've never tried connecting the cable to other terminals.  I may do one day out curiosity as I enjoy tweaking the hifi.  I wouldn't expect a difference in SQ, but you never know unless you try! 

 

 

Baldrick1's picture
Offline
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 112
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

shadders wrote:

[Again, i am not discounting that you heard a change - or perceived a change - but we also need to acknowledge that there are the psychological effects we are all prone to - and these effects are proven, and affect people listening to audio. You make a change, you expect a change, you perceive a change.

If this is not yourself, then ok.

Regards,

Shadders.

Thank you for not discounting that I may have heard a change (as I did and as did someone who was not expecting a change or aware that anything had been done to change the actual setup...but that fact is just an annoying piffle, I suppose).

What does not stack up in all this re. the cable demo is why we have some may different makes, types, designs & constructions of cables, that a lot of people pay money for (and I am ssuming that they are not all mugs for doing so) if they should all sound the same?  So bell wire sounds the same as the most expensive Atlas concaction (I forget the name)?

Anyway, one could go at this for ever and never reach the same conclusion.  So let's just say that for some (whether by expectation or by surprise) find a difference...and if it makes them happy, improves their HiFi lot...then so much the better.  I for one am happy withthe difference.

Regards

Balders

 

__________________

Rotel RA-11 | Technics SL-P333 | Rotel RT-11 | Technics SL-L1 | KEF Q300 | Grado SR80i | Atlas & QED interconnects

shadders's picture
Offline
Joined: 19 Nov 2009
Posts: 130
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

rob100 wrote:

shadders wrote:

 

Hi,

With regards to the £20k cables - how did you know that it was the £20k cables that sounded so good ?

 

A/B testing with same music, same equipment, same positioning, only change was cable (power leads, interconnects and speaker cables).

The demonstration was designed to highlight that cables do make a difference, even in budget older systems.  To that extent it was a success, but I don't think even Russ Andrews would advocate spending £20k on cables for a £300 2nd hand system.

My own view...  cables do make a difference, but my money's better spent on equipment.

Tring to bring the thread back to the OP.  I use van damme 6mm speaker cable to my woofer terminals (because these are closest to the floor) I then use jumpers made from the same cable to the tweeters.  I choose this cable because I believe it to be a great value cable at a reasonable price.

I've never tried connecting the cable to other terminals.  I may do one day out curiosity as I enjoy tweaking the hifi.  I wouldn't expect a difference in SQ, but you never know unless you try! 

 

Hi,

I have tried cables - at the low end of the cost spectrum, and did not notice any difference.

Transmission line theory, electronic circuit theory, and Maxwells equations (150 years old now) describe everything required for understanding speaker cables behaviour.

Hence with theory and experience of no changes in speaker cable sound - i would not pursue auditioning cables.

As a previous poster stated - he uses banana plugs - and heard the difference in speaker cable connection placement (red to treble, black to bass) - yet banana plugs have an annular ring edge connection to the speaker terminal - yet this is not expected by people to have any impact. Direct connection to the speaker terminals by the cable - screws connections - would ensure a vastly greater surface contact area between cable and terminal. So banana plugs are ok, but the speaker cable placement has such a significant impact on sound.

This is completely opposite to theory on optimal connections.

Therefore - are people actually hearing what they think they are hearing, or are the reasons they expect for the change, in error ?

Given that we have for two centuries established electrical theory, and slightly later EM and transmission line theory - it must be understandable why what is stated to be heard, is challenged.

As such, given engineering theory, pyscological behaviour, practicality, test and measurement, people still want to believe what they hear, and disregard these aspects when applied to audio.

Perhaps sceptism is not sufficient, even in well intentioned people - and DBT should be used. ?

Regards,

Shadders.

__________________

BenLaw's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 5903
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

The speakers may not have been moved but if there really was a change in sound this is much more likely to have been caused by, for example, listening to the music a few centimetres left or right from a previous position, or tilting your listening position or head a few centimetres further back or forward. Stick a mic in a different position by a few centimetres and it will measure different. Change which binding post a banana plug goes in and it won't. If it sounds different it's because it measures different. Although the anti-science acolytes obviously believe ears and brains are better than measuring equipment and sound scientific theory. 

 

Either that, or there was no difference save a perceived one. You really think your memory for music lasts over hours / days / weeks? There was a good link posted recently that demonstrated people are far better at immediate comparisons. And you think your girlfriend hasn't noticed you squirrelling away at the back of your speakers? Posting furiously on your computer? Doing your important listening comparisons? Studying her as she puts on her music?

__________________

HiFi   /   A/V   /   Bedroom

Baldrick1's picture
Offline
Joined: 13 Jan 2013
Posts: 112
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

I was in exactly the same position when  listening to both plug setups.  How do I know this?  Because I was in the same chair with my head back against the headrest and I had not moved the chair or the headrest.  And so was my OH when she blind tested the change (after having first noticed it with no prompting from em or information that I had changed anything (she was out shopping whilst I was playing and I had finished by the time she got back).

Read into that what you will.  I am not trying to convince anyone that I am right.  I am only agreeing with one side of the views expressed in this post.  I am happy that I have an improvement and only suggesting to other that they try and see if they get one too (perceived or otherwise).  The detractors may be right...who knows for sure.  Each to their own. silenced

 

__________________

Rotel RA-11 | Technics SL-P333 | Rotel RT-11 | Technics SL-L1 | KEF Q300 | Grado SR80i | Atlas & QED interconnects

BenLaw's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Nov 2010
Posts: 5903
RE: Correct wiring of jumper cables

shadders wrote:

Baldrick1 wrote:

I'll say it again...it is all subject and down to what ONE hears on ONES system.  I can hear a difference on mine...but may not be able to hear the same or any on yours (if I could egt a listen to it).

Best approach is to try it and see; asymmetric connection costs nothing to try/you can get a set of four jumpers on e@&# for between £10 - £25 (the higher cositng one seem to be the much spoken about TQ Blue BTW)...so if one wants to try it one can. Simples.

Hi,

OK - so the changes on this forum that i have read - obviously i could not read all.

1. Change in cable

2. Change in speaker jumpers from plate to wire

3. Change in mains cable - or gold plated connections.

4. Change in speaker cable connection orientation on speaker terminals (this thread)

5. In another forum - and publication - the rubber feet on a DAC changed to affect the sound

6. Fuse in plug changed to a "better" ??? fuse to improve the sound.

So individually all these changes are stated to change the sound.

Some specific people have made a selection of the changes listed above.

If each has a significant or appreciable effect to change the sound to be better, then the collection of the changes (which some people have applied) must improve the sound considerably - since each change has a significant or appreciable change on their own.

So the current system must sound very different and much better to the original setup ?

Or is it, that each small change made does not actually affect the sound, but you think it does ?

Do those people who made each change actually think about what they have done up to this point, if they have applied many of the changes above individually ?

Is the sound so much better than before any changes ?

Or is it you have made each change, and confirmed to yourself that each change was for the better, without realising that if taken as a whole - your system really does not sound any different than it did before ALL the changes ?

To quote a person on another forum - audio is the only area where people throw out the physics rule book.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

Is anyone going to answer this point about aggregating changes? Given that some people describe night and day changes when changing cables, there must be massive differences in sound when three or four of these changes take place. Is this right?

__________________

HiFi   /   A/V   /   Bedroom