I was in exactly the same position when listening to both plug setups. How do I know this? Because I was in the same chair with my head back against the headrest and I had not moved the chair or the headrest. And so was my OH when she blind tested the change (after having first noticed it with no prompting from em or information that I had changed anything (she was out shopping whilst I was playing and I had finished by the time she got back).
You're one of many, recently and historically, to cite partner's ability to spot these 'obvious' changes. Thing is, no-one's ever done it in controlled conditions. So either people are blessed with remarkable golden-eared partners or they're getting subconscious cues. I know which I think is more likely.
HiFi / A/V / Bedroom
IMHO that is irrelevant and almost on a par, re. its conjecture, what the doubters as conjecture by those who expouse the benefits of the change.
As I have said before...we who believe in the benefits of this change are just informing of what we believe we have found so that others (who want to, and who have an open mind) can try this and see if it has the same effect for them...or not as the case may be. And then decide for themselves.
Do not understand why the above is not understood, for what it is (as stated) and generates so much derision? What is suggested is non destructive/costs no money and is easily tried...and no one is forced to try and/or to adopt.
Rotel RA-11 | Technics SL-P333 | Rotel RT-11 | Technics SL-L1 | KEF Q300 | Grado SR80i | Atlas & QED interconnects
...some people describe night and day changes when changing cables...
Do not know where you get that idea from...and perhaps that explains why you have had no answers to your 'supposition'?
I think that most people commenting seem to suggest the changes as noticable/apparent and certainly from my experience that tends to be the case although I would terms them 'subtle' and 'discernable'.
Here is a quote from the early pages of the thread :
The sound has improved noticeably, with more clarity, better bass and a bigger soundstage, no idea why it works but I am now rediscovering all my music again.
People are claiming a substantial change.
To me that is not substantial merely noticeable. In my book substantial would be going from a £500 to a £1K+,. Now that could be termed 'night & day' in terms of difference.
It's not conjecture. People do give off cues, that is the whole reason why DBTs are necessary. And those in intimate relationships are no doubt better than most at picking up on these cues. In any particular case where I don't know precisely what happened I don't state anything as 100%. But I stand by saying that it is far, far more likely that your partner picked up on cues (if she perceived a difference at all) than that she has golden ears beyond all those who have failed in DBTs before.
And I don't see why people get so riled by someone like me posting a bit of balance to these anti-science, subjective observations. I agree that these observations are less harmful than many, in that they are free and do not line the pocket of cable makers etc. However, they do perpetuate the anti-science mythology of a hardcore of hifi enthusiasts, which misguides some, and leads to general ridicule.
Fwiw, I've used fairly expensive cables, experimented with jumpers and with which binding posts I use and found no effect at all.
I wasn't particularly referring to this thread, soryy if that wasn't clear. I don't think anyone has used the phrase night and day on this thread, but it is used very commonly for many if not all of the tweaks that Shadders described. I didn't expect anyone to conisder that each of these tweaks would be a night and day difference. But the aggregation point is still a valid one. If each of these changes makes a noticeable / significant change, just how far away is the sound from where it started when these matters are cumulative? It wasn't a 'supposition' (and it wasn't mine anyway) but it seems a very valid question to me. It also seems straightforward, surely someone can provide an answer? You've been playing with mains cables as well haven't you? And jumpers? What's the answer from your perspective?
Disagree that your posts are 'a bit of balance'...seem more like a one-side crusade...judging by the intricacy & detail of the information you provide (but IMHO is no more valid than another information or view that has been contributed to this thread)...but then again...it is a free world and free speech rules.
So we just have to accept that the doubters doubt and the followers are a happy bunch...having got an improvement in their sound for nothing (as far as they are concerned...and finally that is all that matters).
See you around...perhaps on some less contentious (to some) topic or other.
Ben, what have you tried in the past in the way of m/c, s/c and i/c......and was it with your current kit?
"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again." André Gide
Anyway - it was a dusk & dawn difference when I changed from plates to jumpers!
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds - the pessimist fears this is true."
James Branch Cabell
MAIN: Apple TV2, Mac Mini (controlled from various iThings using Remote), CA Azur 751BD & Panasonic P42V20B into audiolab M-DAC, feeding a Primare A34.2 class D power amp via XLRs, 2x 5m of Atlas Ascent 2 firing up Totem Arros. DALI Kubik Free in my kitchen
ON THE HOOF: iPhone 5S/Sennheiser MM450.
The most expensive S/C was Ecosse MS2.4, I/C Ecosse The Symphony. I never really bothered with M/C save for one I bought S/H from a forum member, the consituent parts of which I can't now remember but had cannibalised internal silver from something, shielding from something else and an expensive plug, I think furutech. I still have this for convenience sake, but don't find it makes a difference on any components. All with my current kit.
I wasn't aware that either intricacy or detail made a view a crusade. Actually, they don't.
However calmly or patiently people post about the lack of scientific vindication for all of these tweaks, they always get accused of a variety of things, including degenerating a thread into a 'cable debate'. IMO it is only fair to someone who may google a forum thread such as this that they are aware of these points. They can then do their own research and make up their own mind.
You miss out an important third group, which is those who used to experiment with cables etc and have come to realise the folly of this approach and the money that has been lost. These people have come to their views based on experience, fortified by all of the objective material out there. There are several such members on this forum and many more elsewhere.
I haven't heard the Ecosse, so can't comment one way or another........but think it's a shame that one experience from one cable company is enough to form a concrete opinion. I know you will answer that science is on your side and so further experimentation is simply a waste of time......though I am fairly certain that there are scientific principles that can (or will in the future) explain why so many people hear a difference (aside from expectation bias).
I have rejected more of these types of things than I've accepted, and if it was down solely to expectation bias, I would have gone with the more expensive solution, which has not proved the case.
You know my position on this, and I yours.........so I will not waste the time of either of us with further fruitless debate.
I haven't heard the Ecosse, so can't comment one way or another........but think it's a shame that one experience from one cable company is enough to form a concrete opinion.
These are not the only cables I've listened to, although they are the only ones at that elevated price. I have listened to several others at more modest pricing, and heard no differences.
The science behind cables is well known and of extremely long standing. Steve's lengthy recent thread opened with the fact that there can indeed be differences in cables. In particular, flat cables may well sound different, although on a technica level they would be inferior. As far as I am concerned, my generic multi-strand copper cables are state of the art, and allow 'information' through as well as any other cable could hope to. The I/Cs I use are of the type used in studios; that is good enough for me. Your hope to me seems vain and pretty bizarre.
IMO (as everyone will agree is the one that is important in this context) my system sounds mind-blowingly good. I have neither the time nor the inclination to conduct any further cable experiments.
I read this a lot. It's a lot more complex than that. Although your recent comments on the cable test article you linked to do show that you consider there to be a strong correlation between cost and quality. (Amongst other things, you referred to the most expensive cable as the 'best' cable.)
Indeed. I don't post to try and convince you. But just as you say you post to get someone to go and listen for themselves, I post to get someone to think for themselves
But just as you say you post to get someone to go and listen for themselves, I post to get someone to think for themselves
So do I.
Where there are two completely opposing approaches, listening for themselves is the only way........and I wholly agree with thinking for themselves, which is why I never take a dogmatic, absolutist approach.
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