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RE: Classe amplification

CnoEvil wrote:

- I think experimentation is never wasted, as the only real way to get more knowledge, is to try stuff. Other people's descriptions can be helpful, but are no substitute.

- Remember, any amp that gets very hot is likely to take a greater toll on its electrical components, so age could be an issue.

- Refs love power/current, but you have to like how it makes them sound. I didn't like them on the end of Linn Klimax gear, nor surprisingly with the Rega Osiris. The 35P is very capable, and considerably more potent than the 35i.

- Mixing brands is quite normal eg. A Tube Pre of one brand (like Croft) with a SS Power.

- I have always preferred the seamless presentation of a well designed speaker, that has enough scale for my needs, than trying to integrate a sub.

 

Yes this is a concern for me. Imagine having to replace the transformer in that thing, it's massive!

Interesting you say the 35P is more potent than the 35i. I thought that it was basically the same amp? Do you mean the gain on the pre-amp?

After an expensive little period of sub experimentation I have to agree with you. Have moved the crossover on now & am think of selling the smaller sub to a friend. Whilst I do love the thought of having 2 subs, it is overkill for my room, particularly if only used for HT, the 12" has more than enough ooompf.

 

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RE: Classe amplification

Neuphonix wrote:

Yes this is a concern for me. Imagine having to replace the transformer in that thing, it's massive!

Interesting you say the 35P is more potent than the 35i. I thought that it was basically the same amp? Do you mean the gain on the pre-amp?

After an expensive little period of sub experimentation I have to agree with you. Have moved the crossover on now & am think of selling the smaller sub to a friend. Whilst I do love the thought of having 2 subs, it is overkill for my room, particularly if only used for HT, the 12" has more than enough ooompf.

It's not just the gain on the Pre. If memory serves, it also has around 4 times the current (80 Amps vs 20 Amps) of the 35i, is heavier, and draws even more current from the grid. It's not for nothing that it cost the same as the integrated.

I think you will have difficulty making worthwhile improvements to your system, without spending a fortune. Room treatment is probably the only area where this might happen (and cables, including Mains Cables  :shifty: )

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

Neuphonix wrote:

Thanks everyone for the replies, really appreciate the input.

Seems the general consensus is to stay with the 35P.

I'm only really considering the Classe because it is a trade in unit with a dealer who will let me trade for it, the change over cost would be fairly reasonable. But TBH it would have to be pretty special for me to part ways with the 35P.

Few too many factors going against it, age of the unit & spending more money not the least of them. But they will let me demo so what the heck, got nothing to lose.

I'll let you all know how things progress.

Rick do you have any reservations in regards to mixing brands of pre-amp / power amp?

Do you think that the extra power offered by the Classe will have any benefit for the 205/2?

 

@ Rick regarding the Fathoms. I was using them in my hifi set-up through a Bryston 10B sub active cross-over with my previous speakers, Focal Diablos. Since making the swap over to the 205/2 I haven't felt the need. Did try running them via the RCA outs on the pre-amp but I wasn't happy with the way they worked. Might try fiddling again, but feel at the moment the Kefs give me plenty of bottom end.

I'm definitely no expert & my room probably has a few issues, but I tended to find that using subs was a bit hit & miss. Sounded fantastic on some tracks & not so great on others. I also think that trying to have them set-up for Hifi & HT complicated the matter further.

So at the moment they are just being used for HT, for which they perform admirably, two subs is a bit ridiculous, but hey!

I originally wanted to buy the velodyne DD+ subs, but found the JL Audios to be much better VFM. The ability to have been able to set the DD+ up on different pre-sets (hifi or HT) which I could swap between via remote would have been very useful.

Do you use a sub? If so what sort?

 

Hi Neuphonix

Thanks for your reply and your welcome.

No, as long as the performance of both ultimately contributes to the system as a whole then I feel it is also perfectly ok to use pre and power amplification from different manufacturers. 

The extra quantity of power will be benefit to you if you feel that the AMS-35P hasn't got enough power left to enable you to listen to your system at the levels that you would like to. Even if this is the case and all things equal and despite its extra resevoir of power however whether the CA-401 tonally gels well with your speakers and electronics is another matter.

If you're after more power then here in the first instance try and keep it 'in house' by looking at power amps from MF as (without wishing to state the obvious) technically and sonically at least another MF power amp should be closer to the AMS-35P.

As for alternative makes of power amplifier of over ten years ago I'll still recommend that you should also look out for a Krell FPB200 or a FPB300. I feel Krell's weightier, smoother, gutsy and dynamic balance not to mention their rip roaring power delivery should enable them to be a good match for your speakers and electronics. I stand to be corrected however I heard that KEF also used or use Krell amplification to partly develop their speakers. 

Anyway, sorry to hear that you found the subs a hit and miss for your hi-fi. JL Audio have recently released their new CR-1 active crossover. Worth a try as being from the same manufacturer as your sub woofers might help with integrating the subs seamlessly with your speakers.

I wouldn't say using two Fathom f112's is ridiculous. The more the merrier. At the moment we are using a Fathom f212 and Fathom f113. JL Audio's new E110 and E112 subwoofers are on their way and for our AV system we hope to be using a configuration consisting of an f212, f113, two (stacked) E112's and two (stacked) E110's. 

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Musicraft (Derby) - Specialist Hi-Fi, AV & Multimedia dealer

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RE: Classe amplification

CnoEvil wrote:

It's not just the gain on the Pre. If memory serves, it also has around 4 times the current (80 Amps vs 20 Amps) of the 35i

Hi CnE

The AMS-35P has four times more current then the AMS35i however just to clarify the the AMS-35P has a peak current of 40 Amps and the AMS35i has a peak current of 10 Amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Musicraft (Derby) - Specialist Hi-Fi, AV & Multimedia dealer

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RE: Classe amplification

MUSICRAFT wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

It's not just the gain on the Pre. If memory serves, it also has around 4 times the current (80 Amps vs 20 Amps) of the 35i

Hi CnE

The AMS-35P has four times more current then the AMS35i however just to clarify the the AMS-35P has a peak current of 40 Amps and the AMS35i has a peak current of 10 Amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Rick, is "peak to peak" current different (ie. double)?.......as that was what I was quoting.

 

Edit. A bit of googlage says (I think) that it's the difference between the two peaks of the sine wave.......you learn something every day, so thanks for the heads up.

:cheers:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

MUSICRAFT wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

It's not just the gain on the Pre. If memory serves, it also has around 4 times the current (80 Amps vs 20 Amps) of the 35i

Hi CnE

The AMS-35P has four times more current then the AMS35i however just to clarify the the AMS-35P has a peak current of 40 Amps and the AMS35i has a peak current of 10 Amps.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Hi Rick & Cno

thanks for the replies, apologies for not coming back sooner.

I just had a quick look in my 35P manual and it says that "Current peak-to-peak = 80amps" not 40? Am I missing something obvious?

So progress report on the Classe adventure, finally heard back from the dealer & unfotunately another customer had taken the ca-401 home for a demo & he didn't think it was coming back. Told me he'd let me know if the guy changed his mind, but it sounds like I may have missed the boat on that one. Oh well, not to be, TBH after the responses on the thread so far I think that it's probably for the best.

However.........

I have stumble across a potential opportunity to pick up an ex-demo AMS-50 for a very attractive price!!! OMG when will it end  Smile

So, what do you think? It all gets a bit convoluted but I may or may not be able to home demo. Have heard this amp at a friends house with the Diablos, & obviously am familiar with the AMS sound. Will it give me more or will I only hear the benefits a high volume?

@ Rick: had to laugh a myself, after saying that two subs is OTT in my room I may now be moving the F110 & F112 on to move onto 2 x F113!!!! >)

(Why can I never get the red devil icon to work  :cry:, am I not evil enough?)

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RE: Classe amplification

Here is my take: If you imagine AC current as a sine wave, then a "peak to peak" of 80A, is 40A above the centre line, alternating to 40A below.....so you have to halve the 80A to get the actual current.

The AMS50 should give more of everything and drive the Refs even better (especially the bass)......as I've said before, they do like power. Whether it's worth the cost in terms of buying it and then running it (power consumption)....only you can decide. I will be very (very) intrigued with what you think.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

CnoEvil wrote:

Here is my take: If you imagine AC current as a sine wave, then a "peak to peak" of 80A, is 40A above the centre line, alternating to 40A below.....so you have to halve the 80A to get the actual current.

The AMS50 should give more of everything and drive the Refs even better (especially the bass)......as I've said before, they do like power. Whether it's worth the cost in terms of buying it and then running it (power consumption)....only you can decide. I will be very (very) intrigued with what you think.

If I can move the 35P on for a reasonable sum the changeover should be quite reasonable.

Not too worried about the power consumption side of things.

Just trying to work out a way to do a home demo first.

The only real drawback is the size of the thing. It won't fit in my rack like the 35P & will require significant shift of kit.

U wanna buy a 35P?  Wink

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RE: Classe amplification

I won't be buying anything unless my finances take a U-turn!

You have to find a way of doing a home demo......if only for the good of the forum.

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

Neuphonix wrote:

If I can move the 35P on for a reasonable sum the changeover should be quite reasonable.

Not too worried about the power consumption side of things.

Just trying to work out a way to do a home demo first.

The only real drawback is the size of the thing. It won't fit in my rack like the 35P & will require significant shift of kit.

U wanna buy a 35P?  Wink

Wazzup  :quest:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

CnoEvil wrote:

Neuphonix wrote:

If I can move the 35P on for a reasonable sum the changeover should be quite reasonable.

Not too worried about the power consumption side of things.

Just trying to work out a way to do a home demo first.

The only real drawback is the size of the thing. It won't fit in my rack like the 35P & will require significant shift of kit.

U wanna buy a 35P?  Wink

Wazzup  :quest:

Good morning! quite a lot is up actually.

Spoke to my MF dealer about the possibility of doing a home demo with the AMS50. Unfortunately they didn't have one in the shop. He was saying that the AMS kit is getting a bit tricky to source. That same discussion we were having around the availability of the 35i. Production has not stopped as such, but MF need to have a minimum number of pre-orders to justify a production run. And if this causes issues for the supply of the 35i you can imagine what it would do to the 50P.

So anyway, I have pulled the trigger on an ex-demo 50P from the states, just in the final stages of sorting our transport costs. Rang MF who assure me the the AMS range have variable voltage power supplies & can be swapped between 110 - 240 by a qualified tech. My dealer who sold me the MF kit is willing to arrange for their in-house techs to do the changeover for me (very generous of them) & will let me put the 35P in their shop on consignment.

I'm probably utterly mad making such a purchase without a demo. But the chaneover cost once I've sold the 35P is more than reasonable. I'm familiar enough with the AMS sound now & really can't see the 50P not being a step up.

And then there's one other significant Christmas present that I've bought myself....... >) (stupid red devil icon, why won't it work!)

There is a second hand (mint condition) Klimax DS on it's way as well!!! Changeover cost once I sell the Akkurate was to good to turn down.

Hehehehehe, feeling a bit jealous mate? :twisted:

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RE: Classe amplification

Neuphonix wrote:

Hehehehehe, feeling a bit jealous mate? :twisted:

Not in the slightest (said through gritted teeth)!

Is it the Klimax DS/1?.......what a system you should end up with.  :bounce:

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

CnoEvil wrote:

Neuphonix wrote:

Hehehehehe, feeling a bit jealous mate? :twisted:

Not in the slightest (said through gritted teeth)!

Is it the Klimax DS/1?.......what a system you should end up with.  :bounce:

Yes it is the DS1. A 2010 variant, but has had the Dynamik PS added.

I've told my missus about the 50P but am think about just swapping the Klimax in for the Akkurate and seeing if she notices!!! Wink

I'd say that this will pretty much finish the hi-fi purchasing side of life for quite some time, apart from some tweaking with cables etc.

So I could probably do you a package deal on the 35P with the Akkurate if you're looking to step it up? :twisted:

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RE: Classe amplification

Neuphonix wrote:

 

Yes it is the DS1. A 2010 variant, but has had the Dynamik PS added.

I've told my missus about the 50P but am think about just swapping the Klimax in for the Akkurate and seeing if she notices!!! Wink

I'd say that this will pretty much finish the hi-fi purchasing side of life for quite some time, apart from some tweaking with cables etc.

So I could probably do you a package deal on the 35P with the Akkurate if you're looking to step it up? :twisted:

If it's from 2010, it's the old version (DS/0) but with Dynamik fitted.......even still, it's one of the best sources available. The latest version (DS/1) is better again, but at a premium. Either version has an "analogue-like" naturalness that the other models can't match.

ATM I'm on a hifi spending drought.  Sad

 

Edit. It was possible to upgrade the DS/0 to a DS/1, but it was much more substantial than a p/s upgrade: http://hifi-advice.com/Linn-Klimax-DS-1-review.html

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Classe amplification

[/quote]

If it's from 2010, it's the old version (DS/0) but with Dynamik fitted.......even still, it's one of the best sources available. The latest version (DS/1) is better again, but at a premium. Either version has an "analogue-like" naturalness that the other models can't match.

ATM I'm on a hifi spending drought.  Sad

[/quote]

Are you sure? I thought I was of the understanding that it was the same unit, but the Dynamik turned it into the /1.

Either way, my Akkurate is a 2010 variant, so it will be a step up. The changeover cost was to good to turn down.

I'll swap you a 35P for your centre speaker!  Wink

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