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CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

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MajorFubar's picture
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RE: RE:

andyjm wrote:

Bad science alert.......

Apologies Steve if you are being ironic, but vinyl has a dynamic range of between 65 and 70dB. That's at best equivalent to 12bits.

Not high res where I come from.

 

MajorFubar wrote:
stevebrock wrote:
BTW Vinyl is a Hi Res format!

 

Ugh! Don't go there! It starts the Digiphiles off on a rant about dynamic ranges and noise-floors lol.

See?  I warned you.

Oh and while we're on the subject of 'bad science', what the hell has the DR of a 12-bit digital source got to do with the potential SQ from vinyl? They're totally different and incomparable technologies.

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RE: RE:

I am  by my own admission no expert and therefore and quite willing to be corrected but my understanding of resolution is how well the output signal matches the analogue signal that was recorded in the studio (or live arena) and therefore surely as vinyl is an "exact" analogue copy it is high def, I though that dynamic range is the dB version of the difference between the loudest and quietest possible passages which will limit vinyl due to the mechanical nature of the pickup and therefore afffetc the sound quality but the copy on the vinyl is still an analogue of the original henvce high def. Or is it???????????????

 

Tommo

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RE: RE:

MajorFubar wrote:

andyjm wrote:

Bad science alert.......

Apologies Steve if you are being ironic, but vinyl has a dynamic range of between 65 and 70dB. That's at best equivalent to 12bits.

Not high res where I come from.

 

MajorFubar wrote:
stevebrock wrote:
BTW Vinyl is a Hi Res format!

 

Ugh! Don't go there! It starts the Digiphiles off on a rant about dynamic ranges and noise-floors lol.

See?  I warned you.

Oh and while we're on the subject of 'bad science', what the hell has the DR of a 12-bit digital source got to do with the potential SQ from vinyl? They're totally different and incomparable technologies.

Hmmm. Some required reading here I think. Wink

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

Yes you are correct Tommo, the waveforms on the vinyl are analogous (there's a clue) to the electrical signals on the tape. Though of course neither the tape itself nor vinyl are flawless mediums (?grammar)  and both of them add distortion to the original waveform to an extent, in different ways to digital capture.

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RE: RE:

Overdose wrote:

Hmmm. Some required reading here I think. Wink

Ha! some absolute pearlers in there.

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RE: RE:

MajorFubar wrote:

andyjm wrote:

Bad science alert.......

Apologies Steve if you are being ironic, but vinyl has a dynamic range of between 65 and 70dB. That's at best equivalent to 12bits.

Not high res where I come from.

 

MajorFubar wrote:
stevebrock wrote:
BTW Vinyl is a Hi Res format!

 

Ugh! Don't go there! It starts the Digiphiles off on a rant about dynamic ranges and noise-floors lol.

See?  I warned you.

Oh and while we're on the subject of 'bad science', what the hell has the DR of a 12-bit digital source got to do with the potential SQ from vinyl? They're totally different and incomparable technologies.

Hmmn. While the mechanism for perfoming the function is different, the aim of the device, the playback of stored music is exactly the same, and the parameters used to analyse performance are also the same. Tape is aonther medium where the storage process is the different, but the aim of the device is the same, and again the parameters used to measure performance are the same.

If you are not going to use dynamic range and frequency response to compare the 'ability' of the devices, what parameters did you have in mind?

 

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RE: RE:

tomlinscote wrote:

I am  by my own admission no expert and therefore and quite willing to be corrected but my understanding of resolution is how well the output signal matches the analogue signal that was recorded in the studio (or live arena) and therefore surely as vinyl is an "exact" analogue copy it is high def, I though that dynamic range is the dB version of the difference between the loudest and quietest possible passages which will limit vinyl due to the mechanical nature of the pickup and therefore afffetc the sound quality but the copy on the vinyl is still an analogue of the original henvce high def. Or is it???????????????

 

Tommo

Err, no.  Don't get me wrong, there are many people who prefer the sound of vinyl, but from a technical perspective it falls short of even redbook CD spec, and miles behind the theoretical spec of HiRes. There are pages of guff on the web about why that may be so, but it would seem that the distortions introduced by vinyl are less offensive than the distortions introduced by CDs - to be clear, neither approach is perfect.  You will never hear the same original music on both CD and vinyl to compare either - the master is bent and stretched to compensate for the failings of vinyl before it is recored, and then bent and stretched after its played back - the same is true of CD . Perhaps this is what people like about vinyl? 

Anyway, your post implies that vinyl has infinite resolution, which clearly it doesn't.  The way engineering types consider resolution is to look at the smallest resolvable change in signal (for the sake of argument, the smallest sound detectable) then compare this with the loudest sound recordable. This ratio (as dB) is the quoted dynamic range.  

Looking for a real world analogy, if your tape measure can measure millimeters, and is 10M long, then the dynamic range will be:

20 * log(10) 10,000 = 80dB 

Not sure if that helps.

 

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

... it reminds me immortal pseudo-photography debate: film vs digital [ dynamic range, lost highlights and shadows, resolution etc] ... fact - film and digital capture are " totally different and incomparable technologies"

 

 

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

lpv wrote:

... it reminds me immortal pseudo-photography debate: film vs digital [ dynamic range, lost highlights and shadows, resolution etc] ... fact - film and digital capture are " totally different and incomparable technologies"

I am not sure about your facts.

There is a general assumption on websites like this that just because the poster doesn't understand a technical point, then no one does. This gets reinforced by other posters who have a similar view - and before you know it, it is accepted fact. Engineers active in the field generally don't bother to post on sites like this, they are too busy earning a living. As a result, a very warped view of reality is developed, unfortunately helped by commericial interests with an axe to grind.

Of course CDs and vinyl are comparable - they are supposed to do the same thing aren't they? I was at a well known national broadcaster just as CDs were being introduced for broadcast use.  What do you think we did? Sat on our hands and said 'good heavens, this is incomparable to vinyl, there is no point testing or measuring it'?

The same is true of film.  Grain size, distribution and levels of sensitivity are directly comparable to pixel depth and resolution in digital.  At the same national broadcaster, I was fortunate enough to work on a wetgate telecine transfer machine.  Film to TV transfer - an incomparable technology? So we didn't bother making any measurements or do any analysis? 

 

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RE: RE:

andyjm wrote:

If you are not going to use dynamic range and frequency response to compare the 'ability' of the devices, what parameters did you have in mind?

I kind of listen to what it sounds like.  The sound-card in my old Windows laptop has a greater DR and FR than my ears, but my ears tell me it still sounds rubbish.  You really can't tell what something sounds like by looking just at its DR and and FR, because beyond a cetain threshold it's irrelevant.  

A 12-bit source probably has a better DR and FR than some studio master tapes from the 50s and early 60s (pre Dolby A) , but it's likely they still sound a billion-times better.

And no, vinyl and CDs are not comparable technologies. They produce an audio output which can be compared, but the technologies are incomparable. If you don't believe me try putting a CD on a turntable and see what it sounds like. Bit quiet and scratchy I bet.

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

"CD players - are they a dieing breed?"

Not yet. Probably not for a long time yet. If LP turntables are anything to go by,  there will be good ones around from loads of manufacturers, at different price bands, for decades to come.

Less choice than ten years ago and less than now, but still plenty to choose from. (Just like the choice we still have in turntables.)

 

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

chebby wrote:

"CD players - are they a dieing breed?"

Not yet. Probably not for a long time yet. If LP turntables are anything to go by,  there will be good ones around from loads of manufacturers, at different price bands, for decades to come.

Less choice than ten years ago and less than now, but still plenty to choose from. (Just like the choice we still have in turntables.)

 

There will undoubtedly be cd spinners, but how many of them will be 'cd players'?  I rather suspect that more and more cd spinners will be BD machines adopted by the masses and that 'cd players' will become a specialist area as turntables tend to be now.  

Until 'the Rich World' gets mega fast broadband then there will be a strong need for optical media.  Third World UK [so far as broadband is concerned] is still a long long way from being able to be entertained by downloads, particularly movies.  My wife downloaded an HD copy[all legal] of The Hobbit yesterday.  A 10gb file that took @ 7 hours to download.  A ridiculous amount of time and for many people would use up the whole of their monthly allowance.  The digital age may be thriving in some areas but far too many people have no hope yet of going download.

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

Yes tend agree why buy just a cd player when you can buy a Blu-ray player that can play cds, sacds and dvds and do other functions as well or a PS. 

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

Agreed, no sense in spending a 1000 quid on a CD player, when your top flight Marantz's, Oppos et al will do the job and then some, plus play movies gloriously.

As far as vinyl goes, I sorely miss the covers and playback, but do not miss the inconvenience, maintenance etc. But one day I would want to get a good deck, if only to play some records we have that have never been released on CD.

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RE: CD players - Are they a dieing breed?

manicm wrote:

Agreed, no sense in spending a 1000 quid on a CD player, when your top flight Marantz's, Oppos et al will do the job and then some, plus play movies gloriously.

As far as vinyl goes, I sorely miss the covers and playback, but do not miss the inconvenience, maintenance etc. But one day I would want to get a good deck, if only to play some records we have that have never been released on CD.

With all the post I think these last few lines makes the most sense...Very good all in one players now...

Its all about boys & toys really... Dnt see any reason getting streamer or CDP when one can do it all And even play music, upgrade pictures, & act as pre amp for movies... sense or money...? With tech these days you can get very good music replay from blueray players. Its a matter of fact you get very little difference in sound quality between digital sources if any at all. Your choice..

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