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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

Cypher wrote:

I agree. The reason I'm tired of these discussions is because I said the exact same thing about digital cables on a dutch forum and everybody said that I was dead wrong.

 

don't worry, that's because most of the netherlands is still stuck in the 70's so digital hifi doesn't exist yet Wink

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

mikefarrow wrote:

lads, thanks for all the replies - all valued ! but 

the original question was basically if you have tried more expensive cables and not detected any improvement or even a difference,

just list the cables you have tried, (including their cost) and the results you have experienced good all bad - hence your sceptisicm !

if you have not tried more expensive cables because you already know they "dont work" please dont reply !

some people have listed what they have tried plus their results which is all i requested !

 

 

It is clear what you are asking for but please don't be offended if I find the question and your take on this a bit silly. It should be common knowledge that you really can't base your opinion on cables on a little switcheroo in your home because your experiences are highly mediated by your expectations. This is why people do tests to cut out the subjective nature of our experiences. Someone here has already posted this link:  http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths Read the link and notice how many tests are done on this subject and ask yourself again what the value is your personal experience.

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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

matt49 wrote:

davedotco wrote:

Grey overcast but slowly brightening here in west London.

However the day brightened considerably a few minutes ago with a group (flock?) of eight green parakeets cavorting around just outside my second floor window, the balcony doors were wide open and their noise attracted my attention.

Like these...

 

 

Oh dear, Dave, we really can't be having that.  :read:

Your picture is of a Green Parakeet (a Central American bird). The ones outside your window are Rose-ringed Parakeets (origin: Africa and India).

Not quite that clear cut Matt.

The rose ringed parakeets are pretty common, there is a nesting colony on the Eyot a hundred yards or so along the river from us, we see them all the time.

These were smaller and in pairs, 4 pairs in this case. There are supposed to be some other exotica in Kew gardens, just across the river from us.

I am no expert and I may well be wrong with my ID, but I am pretty sure that these were not the usual suspects.

 

BTW. For those interested we have had a bird of prey, sparrowhawk probably, hanging out locally since the summer, just the one I think.

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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

fr0g wrote:

I did the same tests with codecs too, after I had started to buy 24 bit 96 KHz downloads...

I downsampled the HD tracks in Audacity, to CD quality.

Then ABXd the original and the downsampled version. I even included high bitrate MP3 conversions...

All sound exactly the same. Conclusion, HD audio is a waste of time. Often it does indeed sound better than the CD recording, I've heard that too, but when the HD version is reduced to CD quality, it also sounds better than the CD recording...SO the HD version was mastered TO SOUND BETTER. Conspiracy to sell yet another version? You decide, but if they would concentrate on mastering quality of CDs then there would be no need for HD music.

It might not be a conspiracy as much as the loudness war doing its thing.

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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

davedotco wrote:

Not quite that clear cut Matt.

The rose ringed parakeets are pretty common, there is a nesting colony on the Eyot a hundred yards or so along the river from us, we see them all the time.

These were smaller and in pairs, 4 pairs in this case. There are supposed to be some other exotica in Kew gardens, just across the river from us.

I am no expert and I may well be wrong with my ID, but I am pretty sure that these were not the usual suspects.

BTW. For those interested we have had a bird of prey, sparrowhawk probably, hanging out locally since the summer, just the one I think.

I think we need a photo, Dave. The Green Parakeet isn't on the British list, even in category E. Of course, it's possible you may have spotted a recent escapee (or eight), but given how difficult it is to distinguish between these birds on the wing and given the overwhelming likelihood that the birds were indeed Rose-ringed, I'm going to stick to my guns.

I just wonder whether this might have been a case of expectation bias; you just wanted to perceive a difference where in fact there wasn't one ...  Wink

The screen door slams, Mary's dress waves ...

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

broner thanks for your reply ! i'm not offended ! didn't know forums could be so amusing !

can you list the cables you use plus any expensive alternatives you have tested and rejected ? (all i asked in first post).

also how am i supposed to evaluate a cable or component with out testing it at home in my system ?

the value of my personnal experience is the only one that matters!!!!!!!!!!

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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

matt49 wrote:

davedotco wrote:

Not quite that clear cut Matt.

The rose ringed parakeets are pretty common, there is a nesting colony on the Eyot a hundred yards or so along the river from us, we see them all the time.

These were smaller and in pairs, 4 pairs in this case. There are supposed to be some other exotica in Kew gardens, just across the river from us.

I am no expert and I may well be wrong with my ID, but I am pretty sure that these were not the usual suspects.

BTW. For those interested we have had a bird of prey, sparrowhawk probably, hanging out locally since the summer, just the one I think.

I think we need a photo, Dave. The Green Parakeet isn't on the British list, even in category E. Of course, it's possible you may have spotted a recent escapee (or eight), but given how difficult it is to distinguish between these birds on the wing and given the overwhelming likelihood that the birds were indeed Rose-ringed, I'm going to stick to my guns.

I just wonder whether this might have been a case of expectation bias; you just wanted to perceive a difference where in fact there wasn't one ...  Wink

I am not an expert and to be honest I just picked something that looked similar off Google so most likely not Green Parakeets then. 

Since moving here a year or so ago I am quite fascinated by the (mostly water) bird life on my doorstep, geese, swans, coots and several types of ducks abound along with a fair number of grey herons and what I belive might be cormorants. In addition the rose ringed parakeets are very common and, as I said, we see them quite often. The ones I saw this morning were much smaller with out the obvious 'ring', youngsters perhaps?

To bring the subject full circle it is believed that a fair number of the rose ringed parakeets are direct descendents of those released at the end of the 60s by Jimi Hendrix, a popular musician of his day.

 

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

davedotco wrote:

TrevC wrote:

andyjm wrote:

mikefarrow wrote:

thanks for your input trevc !

when i swapped the free "kettle lead" cable on my intergrated amp for a much thicker russ andrews signature cable the sound improved in all areas but mainly in the bass output of my system which became louder/fuller (?)

this is apparently due to the lower resistance that this thicker cable has hence it supplies the amp with power more easily.

wether this is true/the actual reason, i wouldnt know - i just know that this mains cable performs better than the free one !

Mike,

You are of course free to believe what you like, but that mains cable isn't impacting the bass response of your amp in any way. 

At a stretch, under very contrived circumstances, changing a mains cable MAY make a difference to the the pickup of stray RF (it can act as an aeriel), and if the amp has been designed very badly, this may eventually find its way to the output and possibly increase background noise. Nothing you are going to do to your mains cable (apart from disconnect it) will impact the bass response of your amp.

The technical explanation:

Mains is AC, your amp runs on DC.  The mains waveform is a sine wave, 50 complete waves per second. This is useless to power an amp, it is the wrong voltage, and needs to be rectified and smoothed.

The power supply in your amp first reduces the AC voltage through a transformer. This is then rectified through a bridge rectifier.  Instead of an AC waveform going positive and negative, the rectified signal now only has positive going pulses, 100 per second. This is still useless to power an amp, and has to be smoothed by a storage capacitor to fill in the gaps between the pulses.  The following link has a good explanation of this and diagrams of the waveforms.  Scroll down to "Full Wave Rectifier Waveforms":

  http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/blog/unregulated-power-supply.html

So, lets imagine that a bass drum kick comes along to be amplified, and it just happens to coincide with the point that the mains AC waveform is zero.  What happens?  The amp can't draw power from the AC supply, at this instant, there isn't any to be had. It draws power from the storage capacitor. The best analogy is to think of the storage capacitor as a bucket, the amp is fed from a hole in the bottom of the bucket by a steady stream, the AC waveform comes along from time to time to slosh some more water in the top of the bucket.

The point is that instantaneous power demands are met by the storage capacitiors in the power supply, not the mains AC waveform (how could it if it is zero?). The AC waveform supplies the AVERAGE power used by the amp, not the instantaneous peaks. The average power demand from an amp is very low, just a few 100's of watts at the most - even with very inefficent designs (most of the supply gets given off as heat, and doesn't find its way to the speakers) - your wife's hairdryer will draw many, many times the power of your amp.

So, how can changing the mains cable make any difference to the instantaneous power available in the amp to improve bass response?

It can't. 

 

 

Bravo. Now let's have no more of this nonsense.

Andyjm's explanation would be rather more convincing if he did not gloss over the one aspect of this debate that is known to make an audible difference, ie Radio Frequency Interference.

I have owned, in recent years, a Plasma TV and two dacs that have an effect on the sound of my system when plugged in and switched on, they do not even have to be connected to the system for this to occur. 

Whilst not formally qualified in this area I have hunted down RF problems in many studios, theaters and homes and radiated RF around a sysyem can be considerable, dropping off with distance. My plasma for example, in it's normal position on top of the equipment cabinet, was quite clearly audible as an increase in the noise floor on my system, quite obvious.

This is an area that has had very little attention, Paul Miller, did some work on this in the 90's, showing how equipment reacted in different ways to the presence of RFI, it was not at all complimentary to some products but has been somewhat swept under the carpet since.

If the RFI is airborn rather than being transmitted through the mains then it is possible that, in the critical area around the equipment, different mains cables could react differently in their susceptibility to RFI and this could be audible.

 

Erm, he was talking about bass response. Red herring.

 

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

mikefarrow wrote:

can you list the cables you use plus any expensive alternatives you have tested and rejected ? (all i asked in first post).

I know it is all you asked, and I am telling you that it is a silly request. You can get two possible answers from those who don't buy into the cable-myths:

1) tried it with cable A, B and C and didn't hear anything (you can extrapolate this argument to every single cable)

2) didn't try it, but you know, there is something that I would like to call a 'scientific inquiry' which has repeatedly been done into this subject and it tells us over and over again that people can't hear differences between cables, with exception of matters related to resistance (again, you can extrapolate this argument to every single cable)

Conclusion: if you ask this question to people who don't believe that there is an audible difference between cables, you already know the answers for every single cable. So what is exactly the purpose of asking it in the first place?

mikefarrow wrote:
also how am i supposed to evaluate a cable or component with out testing it at home in my system ?

If you checked the link in my previous E-mail you would know what needs to be done to test it properly.

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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

davedotco wrote:

I am not an expert and to be honest I just picked something that looked similar off Google so most likely not Green Parakeets then. 

Since moving here a year or so ago I am quite fascinated by the (mostly water) bird life on my doorstep, geese, swans, coots and several types of ducks abound along with a fair number of grey herons and what I belive might be cormorants. In addition the rose ringed parakeets are very common and, as I said, we see them quite often. The ones I saw this morning were much smaller with out the obvious 'ring', youngsters perhaps?

To bring the subject full circle it is believed that a fair number of the rose ringed parakeets are direct descendents of those released at the end of the 60s by Jimi Hendrix, a popular musician of his day.

Hendrix ... parakeets ... well I never! 

Have you been down to the Wetlands Centre in Barnes? Now's a great time to visit, with migratory birds passing through.

:cheers:

Matt

The screen door slams, Mary's dress waves ...

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

TrevC wrote:

davedotco wrote:

TrevC wrote:

andyjm wrote:

mikefarrow wrote:

thanks for your input trevc !

when i swapped the free "kettle lead" cable on my intergrated amp for a much thicker russ andrews signature cable the sound improved in all areas but mainly in the bass output of my system which became louder/fuller (?)

this is apparently due to the lower resistance that this thicker cable has hence it supplies the amp with power more easily.

wether this is true/the actual reason, i wouldnt know - i just know that this mains cable performs better than the free one !

Mike,

You are of course free to believe what you like, but that mains cable isn't impacting the bass response of your amp in any way. 

At a stretch, under very contrived circumstances, changing a mains cable MAY make a difference to the the pickup of stray RF (it can act as an aeriel), and if the amp has been designed very badly, this may eventually find its way to the output and possibly increase background noise. Nothing you are going to do to your mains cable (apart from disconnect it) will impact the bass response of your amp.

The technical explanation:

Mains is AC, your amp runs on DC.  The mains waveform is a sine wave, 50 complete waves per second. This is useless to power an amp, it is the wrong voltage, and needs to be rectified and smoothed.

The power supply in your amp first reduces the AC voltage through a transformer. This is then rectified through a bridge rectifier.  Instead of an AC waveform going positive and negative, the rectified signal now only has positive going pulses, 100 per second. This is still useless to power an amp, and has to be smoothed by a storage capacitor to fill in the gaps between the pulses.  The following link has a good explanation of this and diagrams of the waveforms.  Scroll down to "Full Wave Rectifier Waveforms":

  http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/blog/unregulated-power-supply.html

So, lets imagine that a bass drum kick comes along to be amplified, and it just happens to coincide with the point that the mains AC waveform is zero.  What happens?  The amp can't draw power from the AC supply, at this instant, there isn't any to be had. It draws power from the storage capacitor. The best analogy is to think of the storage capacitor as a bucket, the amp is fed from a hole in the bottom of the bucket by a steady stream, the AC waveform comes along from time to time to slosh some more water in the top of the bucket.

The point is that instantaneous power demands are met by the storage capacitiors in the power supply, not the mains AC waveform (how could it if it is zero?). The AC waveform supplies the AVERAGE power used by the amp, not the instantaneous peaks. The average power demand from an amp is very low, just a few 100's of watts at the most - even with very inefficent designs (most of the supply gets given off as heat, and doesn't find its way to the speakers) - your wife's hairdryer will draw many, many times the power of your amp.

So, how can changing the mains cable make any difference to the instantaneous power available in the amp to improve bass response?

It can't. 

 

 

Bravo. Now let's have no more of this nonsense.

Andyjm's explanation would be rather more convincing if he did not gloss over the one aspect of this debate that is known to make an audible difference, ie Radio Frequency Interference.

I have owned, in recent years, a Plasma TV and two dacs that have an effect on the sound of my system when plugged in and switched on, they do not even have to be connected to the system for this to occur. 

Whilst not formally qualified in this area I have hunted down RF problems in many studios, theaters and homes and radiated RF around a sysyem can be considerable, dropping off with distance. My plasma for example, in it's normal position on top of the equipment cabinet, was quite clearly audible as an increase in the noise floor on my system, quite obvious.

This is an area that has had very little attention, Paul Miller, did some work on this in the 90's, showing how equipment reacted in different ways to the presence of RFI, it was not at all complimentary to some products but has been somewhat swept under the carpet since.

If the RFI is airborn rather than being transmitted through the mains then it is possible that, in the critical area around the equipment, different mains cables could react differently in their susceptibility to RFI and this could be audible.

 

Erm, he was talking about bass response. Red herring.

 

The bass response was an example chosen to explain why the mains cable should have no effect an the sound of an amplifier.

The RFI issue is another example, in this case chosen to illustrate how, by rejecting high levels of RFI in the environment close to the equipment, a different mains lead might have an effect on the sound of an amplifier.

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

broner how do you test/evaluate/select your systems components be they cables or hardware ?

do you ask people to pick out components for you or do you choose items yourself ?

(is this a silly question ?)

 

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

Mean cats eat parakeets, and this one's nearly dead.

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RE: cable sceptics give us your experiences !

matt49 wrote:

davedotco wrote:

I am not an expert and to be honest I just picked something that looked similar off Google so most likely not Green Parakeets then. 

Since moving here a year or so ago I am quite fascinated by the (mostly water) bird life on my doorstep, geese, swans, coots and several types of ducks abound along with a fair number of grey herons and what I belive might be cormorants. In addition the rose ringed parakeets are very common and, as I said, we see them quite often. The ones I saw this morning were much smaller with out the obvious 'ring', youngsters perhaps?

To bring the subject full circle it is believed that a fair number of the rose ringed parakeets are direct descendents of those released at the end of the 60s by Jimi Hendrix, a popular musician of his day.

Hendrix ... parakeets ... well I never! 

Have you been down to the Wetlands Centre in Barnes? Now's a great time to visit, with migratory birds passing through.

:cheers:

Matt

Hendrix is known to have released some parakeets (parrots in the legend) into the wild but the idea that the tens of thousand of such birds are all descended from these is fanciful. 

The Wetlands centre was just opening up when we left the UK at the begining of the noughties, really should pay a vist now that I have the time.

On a somewhat similar theme, my hi-fi budget has disappeared even further over the horizon in the last few weeks, Mrs DDC is planning a whale watching expedition in the new year, late february maybe.

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RE: Mike, you are a brave fellow.

davedotco wrote:

TrevC wrote:

davedotco wrote:

TrevC wrote:

andyjm wrote:

mikefarrow wrote:

thanks for your input trevc !

when i swapped the free "kettle lead" cable on my intergrated amp for a much thicker russ andrews signature cable the sound improved in all areas but mainly in the bass output of my system which became louder/fuller (?)

this is apparently due to the lower resistance that this thicker cable has hence it supplies the amp with power more easily.

wether this is true/the actual reason, i wouldnt know - i just know that this mains cable performs better than the free one !

Mike,

You are of course free to believe what you like, but that mains cable isn't impacting the bass response of your amp in any way. 

At a stretch, under very contrived circumstances, changing a mains cable MAY make a difference to the the pickup of stray RF (it can act as an aeriel), and if the amp has been designed very badly, this may eventually find its way to the output and possibly increase background noise. Nothing you are going to do to your mains cable (apart from disconnect it) will impact the bass response of your amp.

The technical explanation:

Mains is AC, your amp runs on DC.  The mains waveform is a sine wave, 50 complete waves per second. This is useless to power an amp, it is the wrong voltage, and needs to be rectified and smoothed.

The power supply in your amp first reduces the AC voltage through a transformer. This is then rectified through a bridge rectifier.  Instead of an AC waveform going positive and negative, the rectified signal now only has positive going pulses, 100 per second. This is still useless to power an amp, and has to be smoothed by a storage capacitor to fill in the gaps between the pulses.  The following link has a good explanation of this and diagrams of the waveforms.  Scroll down to "Full Wave Rectifier Waveforms":

  http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/blog/unregulated-power-supply.html

So, lets imagine that a bass drum kick comes along to be amplified, and it just happens to coincide with the point that the mains AC waveform is zero.  What happens?  The amp can't draw power from the AC supply, at this instant, there isn't any to be had. It draws power from the storage capacitor. The best analogy is to think of the storage capacitor as a bucket, the amp is fed from a hole in the bottom of the bucket by a steady stream, the AC waveform comes along from time to time to slosh some more water in the top of the bucket.

The point is that instantaneous power demands are met by the storage capacitiors in the power supply, not the mains AC waveform (how could it if it is zero?). The AC waveform supplies the AVERAGE power used by the amp, not the instantaneous peaks. The average power demand from an amp is very low, just a few 100's of watts at the most - even with very inefficent designs (most of the supply gets given off as heat, and doesn't find its way to the speakers) - your wife's hairdryer will draw many, many times the power of your amp.

So, how can changing the mains cable make any difference to the instantaneous power available in the amp to improve bass response?

It can't. 

 

 

Bravo. Now let's have no more of this nonsense.

Andyjm's explanation would be rather more convincing if he did not gloss over the one aspect of this debate that is known to make an audible difference, ie Radio Frequency Interference.

I have owned, in recent years, a Plasma TV and two dacs that have an effect on the sound of my system when plugged in and switched on, they do not even have to be connected to the system for this to occur. 

Whilst not formally qualified in this area I have hunted down RF problems in many studios, theaters and homes and radiated RF around a sysyem can be considerable, dropping off with distance. My plasma for example, in it's normal position on top of the equipment cabinet, was quite clearly audible as an increase in the noise floor on my system, quite obvious.

This is an area that has had very little attention, Paul Miller, did some work on this in the 90's, showing how equipment reacted in different ways to the presence of RFI, it was not at all complimentary to some products but has been somewhat swept under the carpet since.

If the RFI is airborn rather than being transmitted through the mains then it is possible that, in the critical area around the equipment, different mains cables could react differently in their susceptibility to RFI and this could be audible.

 

Erm, he was talking about bass response. Red herring.

 

The bass response was an example chosen to explain why the mains cable should have no effect an the sound of an amplifier.

The RFI issue is another example, in this case chosen to illustrate how, by rejecting high levels of RFI in the environment close to the equipment, a different mains lead might have an effect on the sound of an amplifier.

 

Which if it is a problem can be dealt with with a cheap ferrite core:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead

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