Budget system, but where's my punch gone?
Hi All,
First post, although I have frequented here many times and learnt a lot while loitering. So thanks for past and hopefully present help.
As you can see from my sig, I'm running a budget system and it's done me proud for quite some time. However we've recently moved home and the lounge is now somewhat larger (7m x 4m). I'm assuming as a result I've been somewhat less satisfied with the sound my system is producing.
The Epos M12's are beautiful sounding speakers and with my current setup (bi-wired from both (A+B) speaker outputs from the Rotel) the pace, image, highs and mids are amazing and the vocals... OH THE VOCALS! So good they make your hair stand on end. I literally get goose bumps. It might just be my ears, but both male and female vocals from those whee speakers are just outstanding. However, the astute might notice the absence of bass from the list of positive traits and may rightly or wrongly think here's yet another "needs bigger/active (staying unbiased here) speakers" post, but it's not that straight forward.
I've read a fair number of posts asking what floor standers or sub they should purchase when in my situation, but I'm unsure and hesitant that this is the only direction I have to head in. My speakers and seating are arranged across the short length of the room. I sit 2.8m away from the speakers which in turn are 1.8m apart. I can easily get the Epos to produce powerful room filling bass down to more than acceptable frequencies. It's nice and tight on drums and has lovely decay on bass strings all pleasantly neutral to the ear. However, and I struggle to describe the problem here, some of the low frequency range seems to have lost it's impact. The tracks sound well paced and lively but say when a bass drum kicks in... well nothing. It can sound immediate, precise, tight, but have no impact or excitement. In the next moment a bass guitar, synth or even the same bass drum might hit a note that sounds fantastic. It's certainly a new problem that I didn't notice in my previous arrangement even though the positioning was very similar.
The reason I don't jump with both feet onto the bigger speaker boat is that the Epos offer and have delivered so much that I would hope to look to other parts of my budget system (whilst still on a budget) for improvement first. Can this issue be addressed with a new amp (creek Evo 2 at a push)? Maybe a power amp (second hand RB-06?) from the pre-amp out on the Rotel? Or maybe a more suitable cable to the bass drivers or new CD source?
I should mention I have tried listening to the Epos epic 5's and Q Acoustics 2050i on a Rotel RA-10 (also 40W) and yes they sound nice, but to my ears the mid and vocals just don't come close. My music tastes can be pretty much extrapolated from the test CD's I took to the auditions. Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Radiohead, I Am Kloot.
What would be the most likely course of action to re-find the punch that's gone missing without loosing the traits I love from my setup and paying a fortune?
Thanks for any help received.
well it might be the kind of biwiring that you are doing. Ideally, you shouldnt be using speaker a n b outputs but use 2 speaker cables from a or b output to the back of the speakers. I have tried the combination you have and it just robbed the speakers of bass.
Your problem is definitely room acoustics. If your system sounded good before moving house then your speaker positioning will have to accommodate the new room. Try the speakers as close as possible to the rear wall, and try moving your listening position further away from the speakers. Also experiment with toe in.
It may just be that you will have to change to the bigger version of the speakers you have to retain the overall sound characteristics but increase the bass.
Hi there, and welcome.
I think you are getting good advice. Here are a couple of thoughts
- What size of room have you moved from?
- Is your current ceiling higher?
- Have you moved from a concrete floor to a suspended wooden one?
I have my system in a fairly big room (about 15' x 22' x 11'), and a standmount that has punch in a smaller room, loses it when placed in here.
If you cannot find a floorstander you like in budget, you are looking at a fast competent sealed sub, like something from BK.
Depending on your floor, de-coupling your speaker from it, can make the bass much tighter........but if the room is too big, the speaker may still not have enough scale.
Hi All,
Thanks for all the responses. Your a good crowd here!
It sounds like a resounding "room" issue, and I must admit I'm inclined to agree.
The floor is carpeted similar to my last property and the ceiling height is roughly the same. One thing I have noted is the wall behind the speakers sounds like it has a large gap between the plaster board and the block work whereas my last house was pretty much solid brick work with paper over the top.
I tried undoing the bi-wiring but unfortunately this did not improve the bass noticeably, it did kill the pace a bit however. Thanks for the suggestion though and the wife loved less cables.
I'll change the positioning round again to see if things can be improved and try another amp or two just for comparison I've been offered an Rotel RA-04SE for a good price (second hand) but it's the same 40W power as my current kit so might hold off until I know for sure if I'm changing speakers.
On that subject and with a hint of resignation, could I ask for a suggestion or two for speakers please? I listened to some CM8's today which sounded good in the shop (on naim kit). Very nice mid but again had to play with the positioning before the bass stopped taking over the show. They were also at the TOP end of my budget at £1200. I would have thought both my RA-02 and possible RA-04 would struggle with these speakers also. However I thought enough of them for a home trail for a night which is encouraging! Maybe there is something affordable that can challenge the vocals on my Epos!
Thanks again.
Try some Kef R series....the R300 has a lot of bass, but whether it has enough for that size of room is hard to tell. The R500 would be better, but is a little outside what your prepared to spend unless you can get ex-dem. I think they would work well with Rotel, and would like the extra room to breath.
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It's quite possible that they just don't suit their current position. Because you were really happy with the speakers in your previous listening environment I'd be really wary about changing them in case you lose that certain something you really love about them, just to try to get the 'kick' back. I'm convinced what you're hearing it's primarily related to the speaker's location in the room, room furnishings, your listening position, etc. If at all possible, try moving them.
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