Black Ravioli
Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.
But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?
Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?
Do any of the "fundamentalists" here now anyone that's colour blind? If you do, try telling that person that he/she can't see the view from the window any differently from you, because however you measure the light it's exactly the same for both of you.
We do not yet, and probably never will, fully understand the brain and the interestions between our senses.
Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.
But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?
Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?
He sounds like he's all about the music. 
Note to mods : I make no derogatory assessment of andyjm here. The essence of the discussion is whether the dubious claims for the function of these products is merely an effect created by the promotional assertions, in the minds of susceptible people. - JC
Note to mods: I am not in the least bit offended by JC.
JC,
I have told this story before, so apologies to anyone who has read this.
My first job when I graduated was in the research and designs group of a well known national broadcaster. I worked in a group specialising in recording equipment design - video and audio. The group in the lab next to mine were responsible for speaker design, although many of the team had moved on, there were some left from the design of the LS3/5A and LS5/9. Knowing I was keen on HiFi they invited me in to their evaluation room to audition some of the speakers.
They demonstrated a number of development versions of the LS3/5, explaing the problems in the sound in each and how they were able to overcome the problem in the next design. I followed their comments, and I could clearly hear each of the problems, and how the problem was corrected in the later version. Except they never changed the speaker, it was the same one for each of the demonstrations.
I remember the lesson to this day. The power of suggestion and the bias that comes from expectation dwarfes any perception ability you may have. I haven't designed audio equipment for 20 years, but I try to stay current. The rise of the cult of the speaker cable and mains conditioner offends my engineering bones, but I fully understand why people are convinced they improve the sound they perceive. Its not that they are gullible, its just that's the way people's brains are wired. The morality of those who sell these products is a different question, but perhaps they believe they work as well.
You are very gracious, Andy. Thank-you. - JC
Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.
But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?
Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?
A criticsm often levied at "tweakers" (by the objectivists), is that they are more interested in messing about with their system than listening to the music.....so I read David's post as confirming that it's possible to be a tweaker and a music lover; rather than insinuating (because he did not make the remark directly) that the other group were not into their music to the same degree.
Anyway, I'm sure he will confirm what he meant.
Do any of the "fundamentalists" here now anyone that's colour blind? If you do, try telling that person that he/she can't see the view from the window any differently from you, because however you measure the light it's exactly the same for both of you.
We do not yet, and probably never will, fully understand the brain and the interestions between our senses.
Do any of the "fundamentalists" here now anyone that's colour blind? If you do, try telling that person that he/she can't see the view from the window any differently from you, because however you measure the light it's exactly the same for both of you.
We do not yet, and probably never will, fully understand the brain and the interestions between our senses.
I really want to edit out my typos, but the edit function seems to have disappeared.
Until then, if it looks like snake oil and tastes like snake oil then it is snake oil. If you want to buy it nobody is stopping you.
But who's to say that 'we' see and taste snake oil the same way. The brain is an amazing thing.
Back to the original point though, yes, ASA were quite right in their judgement because objective claims were being made that cannot be objectively substantiated. This shouldn't stop BR advertising effectively so long as they don't make such claims.
You can't edit a post once it's been replied to.
But who's to say that 'we' see and taste snake oil the same way. The brain is an amazing thing.
Back to the original point though, yes, ASA were quite right in their judgement because objective claims were being made that cannot be objectively substantiated. This shouldn't stop BR advertising effectively so lon as they don't make such claims.
I own 16 of the basic BR pads, they go under my CDP, my Pre, and my monoblocks.
For me they made a clear difference in a good way.
I don't even really care how they work. I do not open up my loudspeakers to see how they work either!
I also remember the last thread, and second that steve 1979 should do another test with the pads on the chassis.
Just a short postscript if I may - I have a friend who uses room tuning crystals, Shanti electromagnetic stabilisers, Harmonix feet, Cardas wood blocks to support his cables (they are rather thick and heavy )and all manner of doodads with his hifi, many of which some people would classify as voodoo BS. He's what I would call the quintessential tweaker and is always on the lookout for new tweaks.
But is he delusional? Maybe. Frankly though, who cares? His wife certainly doesn't and neither does he. It's his money and his ears - even if there really isn't a sound quality improvement, as long as he believes it's money well spent, then who am I to tell him he's wasting his money (or not)?
Although interestingly according to David's definition that guy is more into his music than someone who thinks all that stuff may be a bit silly, doesn't spend time researching, obtaining, comparing and discussing it, and listens to music through a straightforward system. Does everyone agree?
A criticsm often levied at "tweakers" (by the objectivists), is that they are more interested in messing about with their system than listening to the music.....so I read David's post as confirming that it's possible to be a tweaker and a music lover; rather than insinuating (because he did not make the remark directly) that the other group were not into their music to the same degree.
Anyway, I'm sure he will confirm what he meant.
David said 'The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi'. No insinuation, he's been very direct and divisive.
On this forum, I read the accusation that way round far more often than the other way round.
The hifi world is just like every other part of society am afriad. Some will use you, some will intimidate you... & some will just sale you rubbish.. Again its all down to listening as far as i am concerned. Some products are marketed very well, & when buying a product of that nature you expect great things... But sorry i always got my ears. & i trust them.
Example lastest eidition of Hifi choice did a group test of dacs ranging from 300 pounds to 1,500.. This included the Chord Qute HD at £990 & Audiolad M-dac £600.. The M-dac came tops in the group test while the Chord Qute has only 3stars!
Also in lastest edition of Hifi world the reviewer said the chord Qute is one the best sounding dacs he has ever heard.. I rest my case.
I for one still do not believe that 2 channel amps are far better than AV AMP!! The difference is so hard to notice sometimes that its not even worth the trobule. Everyone has the free will to say things the way they see it.. May be one day.. just may be one day, we shall know how we have been taken for a ride!!
I think we have to use are ears.. The problem being most of us as humans are followers. Even when are ears are telling us the truth we choose not to even believe are ears but what others tell us..
What is this stuff made of?
I have seen references to technology derived from nuclear submarines
Thats near enough correct , heard this first hand when the things first hit the muggit , whoops sorry market.
Or is there some actual technology going on?
Ha ha,nope not on yer life.