Have your say & ask the experts!

Black Ravioli

151 replies [Last post]
Craig M.'s picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 2875
RE: Black Ravioli

busb wrote:

Small beer. The real master:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

I read an interview with him where he was honest enough to admit that his tweaks worked not by changing the sound of equipment, but by changing (or not) the listeners perception of the sound.

__________________

Synology NAS + ATV2 > ADM9RS

Captain Duff's picture
Offline
Joined: 26 Jul 2012
Posts: 125
RE: Black Ravioli

Craig M. wrote:

busb wrote:

Small beer. The real master:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

I read an interview with him where he was honest enough to admit that his tweaks worked not by changing the sound of equipment, but by changing (or not) the listeners perception of the sound.

 

Also the problem doesn't necessarily lay with someone who sells stuff like 'rainbow foil', but with the eejits who buy it...

However, when it comes to isolation I'm 100% convinced for TT's, 99% for CD players, but less certain for amps etc. Also, I would be very surprised if there really was a real difference between the very expensive BR and far cheaper sorts of rubber or sorbathane isolating pads. In fact, is not BR probably just sorbathane by another name?

__________________

Thorens 166 BC MkVI turntable, Origin Live Alliance tonearm, Goldring 2200 cartridge; Opera Consonance 120 Linear CD player; Denon DNP-720AE media player; Sugden Mystro amplifier; MS Aviano 8 speakers.

CJSF's picture
Offline
Joined: 25 May 2011
Posts: 1864
RE: Black Ravioli

busb wrote:

Small beer. The real master:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

My god, I had forgotten just how 'off the wall' that guy is . . . doh!

MikeToll's picture
Offline
Joined: 7 Jul 2010
Posts: 72
RE: Black Ravioli

A little while ago I heard about BR and was intrigued but lost interest when I found out the price but as the idea still intrigued me, at my wifes suggestion, I bought a rubber stable mat (4ft X 6ft) for the princely sum of £25. They are thick and heavy with various surfaces available and I have now cut enough mats out to go under the record deck, CD player, tape deck (still got one!), blue ray player, humax, tuner and enough over for  more if I so wish. I have not put one under the amp as it would leave little room for air flow and cooling. The shelving of the cabinet they are in is only moderately thick wood and the mats completely cover each shelf so masses of damping.

The difference in sound is subtle but I think there is an improvement in the base and stability of the record deck and possibly the CD player. I can understand that as they have moving parts, particularly the record deck. The solid state pieces of equipment sound no different to me or so slight I can't be sure. Anyway all the bits of rubber have been left in place to match visually apart from the amp.

As I said experiment done for £25 and I am very happy to leave BR on the dealers shelf. Smile

MikeToll's picture
Offline
Joined: 7 Jul 2010
Posts: 72
RE: Black Ravioli

A little while ago I heard about BR and was intrigued but lost interest when I found out the price but as the idea still intrigued me, at my wifes suggestion, I bought a rubber stable mat (4ft X 6ft) for the princely sum of £25. They are thick and heavy with various surfaces available and I have now cut enough mats out to go under the record deck, CD player, tape deck (still got one!), blue ray player, humax, tuner and enough over for  more if I so wish. I have not put one under the amp as it would leave little room for air flow and cooling. The shelving of the cabinet they are in is only moderately thick wood and the mats completely cover each shelf so masses of damping.

The difference in sound is subtle but I think there is an improvement in the base and stability of the record deck and possibly the CD player. I can understand that as they have moving parts, particularly the record deck. The solid state pieces of equipment sound no different to me or so slight I can't be sure. Anyway all the bits of rubber have been left in place to match visually apart from the amp.

As I said experiment done for £25 and I am very happy to leave BR on the dealers shelf. Smile

Covenanter's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2012
Posts: 960
RE: Black Ravioli RE: Black Ravioli

Captain Duff wrote:

Craig M. wrote:

busb wrote:

Small beer. The real master:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

I read an interview with him where he was honest enough to admit that his tweaks worked not by changing the sound of equipment, but by changing (or not) the listeners perception of the sound.

 

Also the problem doesn't necessarily lay with someone who sells stuff like 'rainbow foil', but with the eejits who buy it...

However, when it comes to isolation I'm 100% convinced for TT's, 99% for CD players, but less certain for amps etc. Also, I would be very surprised if there really was a real difference between the very expensive BR and far cheaper sorts of rubber or sorbathane isolating pads. In fact, is not BR probably just sorbathane by another name?

Agreed.  I don't have a TT anymore but as it is a mechanical device isolating it from vibrations seems sensible and when I had one in the 1970s/80s I did isolate it.  The same would seem to be true for CD transports and speakers, there is at least the possibility of mechanical feedback so why not try to reduce that?  With pure electronics it seems less likely to have any effect.  I have therefore put some "Isolation Pads" under my CD player and as they came in a pack of 8 under my Amplifier too.  |Did they make any difference?  Not that I could tell but as they only cost £14 (AudioSerenity from Amazon) I thought it was a cheap bit of insurance.  (Other users have said they work wonders.  Laughing)

Chris

PS I wonder how strong is the psychological effect which says that because you have spent a lot of money on something you are more likely to think it is wonderful!? 

andyjm's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jul 2012
Posts: 567
RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

This goes to the heart of my point, which is atm we cannot measure all the subtle changes that the ear picks up on. This debate would not be happening if the subject was speaker stands, as people have generally come to accept the benefits. 

Current test equipment is many orders of magnitude more sensitive than the ear when it comes to resolving changes in phase, frequency response and amplitude. You do have a point however that it is the combination of these factors that we perceive as audio - and it is much harder to quantify this combination of factors with a single parameter.

It is however quite easy to detect when something has changed, if you are prepared not to care about what has changed.  So  statements like 'I put squashy rubber under my CD player and the sound improved' are very difficult to prove, but statements like 'I put squashy rubber under my CD player and the sound changed' certainly can be objectively tested.

Back in 2008, software was developed to answer exactly that question - has anything changed?  It is available free, and effectively takes two recordings - one before the change (be it a fancy interconnect, squashy feet, green pen on the CD edge)  and then compares it with a recording taken after the change. After doing some slick software alignment of the the two recordings, any differences are highlighted. One can only guess why this hasn't been more widely used in the HiFi press when evaluating the claims of manufacturers.

Have a look - http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm

Andy.

__________________

CnoEvil's picture
Offline
Joined: 21 Aug 2009
Posts: 11415
RE: Black Ravioli

andyjm wrote:

Current test equipment is many orders of magnitude more sensitive than the ear when it comes to resolving changes in phase, frequency response and amplitude. You do have a point however that it is the combination of these factors that we perceive as audio - and it is much harder to quantify this combination of factors with a single parameter.

It is however quite easy to detect when something has changed, if you are prepared not to care about what has changed.  So  statements like 'I put squashy rubber under my CD player and the sound improved' are very difficult to prove, but statements like 'I put squashy rubber under my CD player and the sound changed' certainly can be objectively tested.

Back in 2008, software was developed to answer exactly that question - has anything changed?  It is available free, and effectively takes two recordings - one before the change (be it a fancy interconnect, squashy feet, green pen on the CD edge)  and then compares it with a recording taken after the change. After doing some slick software alignment of the the two recordings, any differences are highlighted. One can only guess why this hasn't been more widely used in the HiFi press when evaluating the claims of manufacturers.

Have a look - http://www.libinst.com/Audio%20DiffMaker.htm

Andy.

Andy, thank you for that.

__________________

"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again."  André Gide

acalex's picture
Offline
Joined: 13 Sep 2011
Posts: 1591
RE: Black Ravioli

Captain Duff wrote:

Craig M. wrote:

busb wrote:

Small beer. The real master:

http://www.belt.demon.co.uk/

I read an interview with him where he was honest enough to admit that his tweaks worked not by changing the sound of equipment, but by changing (or not) the listeners perception of the sound.

 

Also the problem doesn't necessarily lay with someone who sells stuff like 'rainbow foil', but with the eejits who buy it...

However, when it comes to isolation I'm 100% convinced for TT's, 99% for CD players, but less certain for amps etc. Also, I would be very surprised if there really was a real difference between the very expensive BR and far cheaper sorts of rubber or sorbathane isolating pads. In fact, is not BR probably just sorbathane by another name?

I think this is quite a disrespectful post for those who were open-minded enough not just to judge and tag that as rubbish but to go there, pick up some demo units, try them in their own system and report back. This has been done without spending a single pound on that but just having the willingness to go through the process. 

As reported already, the BR also proven to make the sound worse in some cases so not sure how this is due to bias expectations. 

Then I agree on the fact that maybe a few improvements can be obtained in a less fashionable way and cheaper...but who are we to judge people who spend their money on nicely built and finished products that, after being tested at home with no pressure, have been reported to make some sort of improvements? In my case, I wouldn't like some kind of foam put like that under my system as I also think that the visual aspect is important and maybe do not mind having the same result spending a bit more for a better finished product. Or maybe I am just not capable myself to make something like that?

There are tons of explanations but seriously this aptitude of labelling buyers or potential buyers as idiots just because we think it's rubbish without even considering the idea of trying them...well not sure this is the right approach in anyhting in life (and trust me not trying to teach any life lesson here).

relocated's picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Jan 2012
Posts: 964
RE: Black Ravioli

Overdose wrote:

Macspur wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

CJSF wrote:

All about 'changes' . . . it is then up to the individual if he or she thinks its 'better', that is 'completley subjective'.  One mans (or womans) better is anothers worse, we dont all think or like the same things.  However over many years there are fundamentals that individuals can get very passionate about, there are equaly individuals who dont undestand said fudamentals, or even, dont want to understand!

Personaly, one has not tried BR, although one has tried rubbery items claimed to do things for 'vibration' in a hifi system . . . banging head against wall

I'm happy with my own views on the subject.

CJSF

IMO. Stands make a difference to the way a speaker sounds, and different designs have different effects...and generally people would agree, because they have used them at one time or another. My question is, can the full effect of this "improvement" be measured, and if not, would get the same verdict as BR?

Exactly and that's why I made my little comment under the link to the article.

Btw Cno, this post wasn't raised to point the finger at you, just thought it was something that should be brought to the forum.  So apologies if you have been dragged into defending a product you and many other people believe in.

Never having tried it, I am not qualified to have an opinion myself, so as with all such things, cables, stands isolation platforms, etc I keep an open mind.

Mac

If there is an actual change when adding or removing this type of accessory, it is possible to measure it. This is a fact. Audiometric equipment is far more accurate than our hearing and I would imagine that most people on this forum have either never had a proper audiometric test or do not have regular checks. If anyone believes that they can hear more than what is measurable, I suggest a visit to the Doctors for a check for Tinitus. excellent!

Be careful when having an open minded approach that your mind is not so open that your brains fall out!

 

rolling on the floor laughing     rolling on the floor laughing     rolling on the floor laughing

__________________

Apple Lossless - ATV3 - AVI ADM 40  also ATV3 into AVI ADM 9T [my wife's system]

and Grado SR80i

Macspur's picture
Offline
Joined: 3 May 2010
Posts: 1888
RE: Black Ravioli

relocated wrote:

Overdose wrote:

Macspur wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:

CJSF wrote:

All about 'changes' . . . it is then up to the individual if he or she thinks its 'better', that is 'completley subjective'.  One mans (or womans) better is anothers worse, we dont all think or like the same things.  However over many years there are fundamentals that individuals can get very passionate about, there are equaly individuals who dont undestand said fudamentals, or even, dont want to understand!

Personaly, one has not tried BR, although one has tried rubbery items claimed to do things for 'vibration' in a hifi system . . . banging head against wall

I'm happy with my own views on the subject.

CJSF

IMO. Stands make a difference to the way a speaker sounds, and different designs have different effects...and generally people would agree, because they have used them at one time or another. My question is, can the full effect of this "improvement" be measured, and if not, would get the same verdict as BR?

Exactly and that's why I made my little comment under the link to the article.

Btw Cno, this post wasn't raised to point the finger at you, just thought it was something that should be brought to the forum.  So apologies if you have been dragged into defending a product you and many other people believe in.

Never having tried it, I am not qualified to have an opinion myself, so as with all such things, cables, stands isolation platforms, etc I keep an open mind.

Mac

If there is an actual change when adding or removing this type of accessory, it is possible to measure it. This is a fact. Audiometric equipment is far more accurate than our hearing and I would imagine that most people on this forum have either never had a proper audiometric test or do not have regular checks. If anyone believes that they can hear more than what is measurable, I suggest a visit to the Doctors for a check for Tinitus. excellent!

Be careful when having an open minded approach that your mind is not so open that your brains fall out!

 

rolling on the floor laughing     rolling on the floor laughing     rolling on the floor laughing

A little disrespectful comment at the end there, but so glad you found it amusing.

In life, I try to have an open mind generally, rather that than being narrow minded , find it makes things so much easier.

Mac

__________________

Accuphase E350 amp, Electrocompaniet EMC1UP CDP, Siltech 25th Classic anniversary 330I  XLR Harbeth Super HL5 on Sound Anchor Quod ELS63 stands, Chord Odessey2 SC.  Grado SR60I headphones.  HIFI RACKS Podium Reference rack.

Joined: 27 Jun 2008
Posts: 10861
RE: Black Ravioli

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

A forum should be for open discussion rather than ridicule (there's plenty of specialist forums for that), so its members shouldn't be stifled by those that are waiting to pounce on them if they are open enough to admit to trying something and hearing a difference. Feel free to state that you think a product is voodoo and why you think it is voodoo, but I think trying to run literary rings around those that have tried it to make them see an end result as predicted by those rubbishing the product is wrong, and just leading to a forum where people are scared to air their views or ask particular questions.

__________________

David @Frank Harvey Hi-Fi, Coventry

Official Record Store Day participants!

richardw42's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 May 2010
Posts: 1765
RE: Black Ravioli

BR is not for me. 

Ive no problem with the product existing, or people buying / trying it. Why shouldn't they ?

 

What does annoy me is the ridiculous advertising and the fact the manufacturers pretty much get away with it. By the time the ASA act the advertising cycle may have moved on. 

 

I was part of a group tring to get a potentially dangerous Xmas ad removed. End of January and the ASA still haven't ruled. 

__________________

TV room : Samsung 60" plasma-ATV3, -AVI ADM40, DM5 in 4.0,/Sonos ZP90,, Sky using Sonos for On Demand, PS4, Sony BDP S570 thru a Yamaha RXV3067. 

HiFi : Sonos ZP90 - AVI ADM9 RSS + AVI SUB

Bedrooms : 2 x Sonos Play 3

IPad Air for Sonos & Spotify / AKG K551

richardw42's picture
Offline
Joined: 2 May 2010
Posts: 1765
RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

 just leading to a forum where people are scared to air their views or ask particular questions.

 

Perhaps you should start to rethink some of your contributions on threads re a certain manufacturer. 

 

__________________

TV room : Samsung 60" plasma-ATV3, -AVI ADM40, DM5 in 4.0,/Sonos ZP90,, Sky using Sonos for On Demand, PS4, Sony BDP S570 thru a Yamaha RXV3067. 

HiFi : Sonos ZP90 - AVI ADM9 RSS + AVI SUB

Bedrooms : 2 x Sonos Play 3

IPad Air for Sonos & Spotify / AKG K551

Craig M.'s picture
Offline
Joined: 20 Mar 2008
Posts: 2875
RE: Black Ravioli

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

The problem here is, like other similar situations, you have two groups.

The first group have a firm belief that a certain product (whatever that may be) will not make any difference at all to the resulting sound because they believe there would be no difference in any measurements taken. Therefore, it is all BS and those that have tried it and heard a difference and are living in a different world where science doesn't exist, so are open to ridicule.

The second group are those genuinely into music and hi-fi. They are open minded enough to try it, whether it makes a difference or not, and decide for themselves by actually listening to see if it does make a difference.

Sound fair?

No.  The first group may require objective proof that something works, but that has nothing to do with being "genuinely into music and hi-fi".  If a product such as BR could be picked out in a proper blind test, I'd be happy to say it worked whether it could be measured or not.  Otherwise I'd bare in mind the fact that our perception of things isn't always reliable or accurate.  I'd be in the first group, not because I'm not into music, but because I don't like spending money on things that my mind might tell me is making a difference when the difference happens to only be in my mind.  

I agree with the last part of your statement but I'm not sure you do, given your attempt to tar people who recognise subjective opinion can be unreliable.

__________________

Synology NAS + ATV2 > ADM9RS