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CnoEvil's picture
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RE: Black Ravioli

The_Lhc wrote:

So, not a presumption on my part then, more, well, reading words on a screen really...

You were right!

What makes anybody think anything is "better" and can you always measure what makes it so (imaging, soundstage etc)?

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli

The_Lhc wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps Cno will describe his experience which led to his beliefs.

Perhaps he will, I expect it goes something like, "I tried it for myself and felt it made such a difference that, expensive as it is, it was worth purchasing for my own system.". 

What more would you expect, beyond trivial details?

 

Lhc, perhaps you are trying to be helpful, but really you aren't.

 

Your suppositions and presumptions about Cno's experience are irrelevent and too far removed from the fact.   Let Cno tell us from first-hand experience what happened, and what he observed.

 

JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

All about 'changes' . . . it is then up to the individual if he or she thinks its 'better', that is 'completley subjective'.  One mans (or womans) better is anothers worse, we dont all think or like the same things.  However over many years there are fundamentals that individuals can get very passionate about, there are equaly individuals who dont undestand said fudamentals, or even, dont want to understand!

Personaly, one has not tried BR, although one has tried rubbery items claimed to do things for 'vibration' in a hifi system . . . :wall:

I'm happy with my own views on the subject.

CJSF

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RE: Black Ravioli

jcbrum wrote:

The_Lhc wrote:

Quote:
Perhaps Cno will describe his experience which led to his beliefs.

Perhaps he will, I expect it goes something like, "I tried it for myself and felt it made such a difference that, expensive as it is, it was worth purchasing for my own system.". 

What more would you expect, beyond trivial details?

Lhc, perhaps you are trying to be helpful, but really you aren't.

Your suppositions and presumptions about Cno's experience are irrelevent and too far removed from the fact.   Let Cno tell us from first-hand experience what happened, and what he observed.

You didn't read the link to his previous thread then?

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RE: Black Ravioli

EDIT: Might as well make use of an annoying duplicate post...

CnoEvil wrote:

The_Lhc wrote:

So, not a presumption on my part then, more, well, reading words on a screen really...

You were right!

I remembered the thread from before, I don't know whether I agree with the theory behind BR, I'm not likely to try it myself (budget doesn't really allow it) but if you're happy I don't see what the problem is.

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RE: Black Ravioli

CJSF wrote:

All about 'changes' . . . it is then up to the individual if he or she thinks its 'better', that is 'completley subjective'.  One mans (or womans) better is anothers worse, we dont all think or like the same things.  However over many years there are fundamentals that individuals can get very passionate about, there are equaly individuals who dont undestand said fudamentals, or even, dont want to understand!

Personaly, one has not tried BR, although one has tried rubbery items claimed to do things for 'vibration' in a hifi system . . . :wall:

I'm happy with my own views on the subject.

CJSF

IMO. Stands make a difference to the way a speaker sounds, and different designs have different effects...and generally people would agree, because they have used them at one time or another. My question is, can the full effect of this "improvement" be measured, and if not, would get the same verdict as BR?

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli

Cno,  Thank-you, I read your posts on the other BR thread which you linked to, with interest.

 

I have one question that I would like to ask.

 

Do you, yourself, conclude that the changes in sound which you heard were actually due to some physical process on a scientific physical level which caused the electronics in your equipment to respond to the prescence of BR,

Or, do you conclude that although you actually heard changes in the sounds, they were due to changes in your own psychology, possibly due to expectation bias, and there was no actual change in the electronic equipment's behaviour ?

 

JC

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RE: Black Ravioli

I'd imagine that most of us (in the general population) wouldn't be readily in a position to answer that, especially the first element of your query JC.  If it were me, I expect my answer would be "Perhaps", to both.

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RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

CJSF wrote:

All about 'changes' . . . it is then up to the individual if he or she thinks its 'better', that is 'completley subjective'.  One mans (or womans) better is anothers worse, we dont all think or like the same things.  However over many years there are fundamentals that individuals can get very passionate about, there are equaly individuals who dont undestand said fudamentals, or even, dont want to understand!

Personaly, one has not tried BR, although one has tried rubbery items claimed to do things for 'vibration' in a hifi system . . . :wall:

I'm happy with my own views on the subject.

CJSF

IMO. Stands make a difference to the way a speaker sounds, and different designs have different effects...and generally people would agree, because they have used them at one time or another. My question is, can the full effect of this "improvement" be measured, and if not, would get the same verdict as BR?

Exactly and that's why I made my little comment under the link to the article.

Btw Cno, this post wasn't raised to point the finger at you, just thought it was something that should be brought to the forum.  So apologies if you have been dragged into defending a product you and many other people believe in.

Never having tried it, I am not qualified to have an opinion myself, so as with all such things, cables, stands isolation platforms, etc I keep an open mind.

Mac

Electrocompaniet EMC1UP, Accuphase E350, Harbeth SHL5 Siltech 25th anniversary 33i XLR, Auditorium 23 SC, HiFi Racks Podium Reference rack.

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RE: Black Ravioli

jcbrum wrote:

Cno,  Thank-you, I read your posts on the other BR thread which you linked to, with interest.

I have one question that I would like to ask.

Do you, yourself, conclude that the changes in sound which you heard were actually due to some physical process on a scientific physical level which caused the electronics in your equipment to respond to the prescence of BR,

Or, do you conclude that although you actually heard changes in the sounds, they were due to changes in your own psychology, possibly due to expectation bias, and there was no actual change in the electronic equipment's behaviour ?

JC

If the changes were psychological, we would not have been reliably able to tell the difference in this blind test.

I thought I made my conclusions quite clear (and continue to do so). I try stuff, if I like what it does I keep it, and if I don't, it goes back. I didn't like the effect of the Big Feet, which were more much expensive, and supposedly even better......if it was all in my mind, I would surely have gone for these, because the blub said they were better.

Why did you pick the system you have over other excellent alternatives? Did you look at some spec sheets and buy blind, or did you go and listen. Assuming you did the latter, could you measure every aspect of what swung your decision?

Do you think isolation and coupling / de-coupling have their effect on sensitive hifi components?

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli

CNo said,

"as far as I can tell, the ruling didn't say that it didn't work, but that objective measurements were not provided to back up the claims"

IIRC the BR company, in their submissions said that there were no objective measurements that could be undertaken by them to prove the worth of their product.

Edit: Found it, the manufacturer said,"They therefore believed that the claims were not capable of objective substantiation". 

Apple lossless - Netgear Nighthawk - ATV3 - AVI ADM 40.  

AVI ADM 9T used in my wife's system

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RE: Black Ravioli

Macspur wrote:

Btw Cno, this post wasn't raised to point the finger at you, just thought it was something that should be brought to the forum.  So apologies if you have been dragged into defending a product you and many other people believe in.

Never having tried it, I am not qualified to have an opinion myself, so as with all such things, cables, stands isolation platforms, etc I keep an open mind.

Mac

Mac, I absolutely know that; but as soon as I read it, I felt my heart sink and new what the predictable fall out would be.

My position is, and always will be............"Don't take my word for it and try it for yourself".

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Black Ravioli

Surely if you can hear the difference then it can be measured?

 

Did you try other things to see if there was a difference like granite chopping boards and/or mouse mats?

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RE: Black Ravioli

CnoEvil wrote:

CJSF wrote:

All about 'changes' . . . it is then up to the individual if he or she thinks its 'better', that is 'completley subjective'.  One mans (or womans) better is anothers worse, we dont all think or like the same things.  However over many years there are fundamentals that individuals can get very passionate about, there are equaly individuals who dont undestand said fudamentals, or even, dont want to understand!

Personaly, one has not tried BR, although one has tried rubbery items claimed to do things for 'vibration' in a hifi system . . . :wall:

I'm happy with my own views on the subject.

CJSF

IMO. Stands make a difference to the way a speaker sounds, and different designs have different effects...and generally people would agree, because they have used them at one time or another. My question is, can the full effect of this "improvement" be measured, and if not, would get the same verdict as BR?

Hi Cno, stand are a fudimental, but are always viewed subjectivly.  Then it is down to the individual to be honest with themselves, thankfully, I am well out of this, although my thoughts have not changed.

Recently ( a couple of weeks ago) I gave the last pair of my top model 'Designer Stands' to an individual who has many years of experiance listening and making hifi components.  He uses the speakers that they were originaly designed for . . . instalation was satisfactory, I was happy, a few days leatter he emailed me, I quote:-

. . . "the speakers now perform like LS3/5a should, with special ability and subtle texture . . . now with really amazing imaging"

That is not me, thats some one of many years experiance putting into words his view on my technology and ability to make a speaker stand that works in conjuction with the speaker it was designed for, he likes, (other speakers were similarly accomodated in our designs of the time).

I have said it befor, we had about an 80% success rate, with a few speakers not performing so well, there was also the individual who refused to 'hear' . . . I have been in on a few dealers demos and heard so much b*****it spouted by the 'indoctrinated customer' it made me squirm.  Still plenty of such 'bs' about now unfortunatly.  Can we differentiate between 'bs' , 'preferences' and 'fact' . . . :?

CJSF

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RE: Black Ravioli

I've tried the BR under my cdp, amps, speakers and they make a difference but the results are not always good for my liking.:)

Main system: MF AMS 35i / Focal 1028be / Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP / MIT cables

Bedroom: Laptop(Qobuz) / Chord gem / Rega Brio-r / KEF ls50 / TQ black / Sennheiser momentum

 

 

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