I found this chart interesting .
It shows how audible frequency of most common types of instrument and other noises .
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Very interesting, but only part of the story.
With the exception of church organ or electronic music, bass notes are rich in harmonics and the lowest fundamentals play only a very small part in defining what we hear. For jazz, rock and popular music of all kinds the octave 35-70hz contributes little to the musical experience, sure some recordings have more in that region than others but it is rarely of any great consequence..
I mentioned earlier, non experts invariably think bass notes are deeper than they actually are and in real music there is little of any consequence below about 82 hz, bottom E on a guitar or E2 on a piano. Some instruments can go deeper, but they rarely do and even then, the contribution of the fundamental is only a small part of whole texture of the note.
In a difficult room such as the OPs 3 x 3 meter space the primary resonance is going to be around 85 - 90hz, putting any speaker close to a wall is going to drive these frequencies to excess, bass trapping in a room that size is impractical and good eq, a variable Q parametric to 'notch out' the resonant frequency is hard to come by in the hi-fi world.
The only practical way to produce tight punchy bass in such a space is to move both the speakers and the listener well out into the centre of the room, the speakers one third of the way down the room and the listener close to the center. That will work, though it is propable unacceptable domestically.
We do so many shows in a row,
And these towns all look the same,
We just pass the time in our hotel room
And wander 'round backstage,
Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,
And we remember why we came.
I have a similar size room and you're spot on about the reasonance - I had a huge spike at 90hz. It was only by measuring this I found it out - prior to that I thought the bass sounded great and my only problem was a bit of slap echo.
As to whether or not bass trapping is practical in a room that size - it depdends. I would say you absolutely must put a bass trap in a corner behind each speaker because when I did that it was a real jaw dropper (and people don't usually have anything in that space anyway). I have quite a lot of bass trapping in that room (8 traps of various sizes) but only because its a 'dedicated' room. If it was my main living room then what I have wouldn't be acceptable. You absolutely can 'fix' a room of this size because I've got the graphs to prove it. The dfference between 90 and 110 is down to about 4.3db now from something like 9db.
Based on my experience, I disagree slightly with the speaker positioning comments. I found that once past a certain point there was no benefit to moving them forward - about a foot and a half is as far as they got. At the moment they're only a foot away but that is party due to a problem chimney breast as you want symmetry as far as possible. Something else I found was that moving the listening position back further helped a lot even though you're generally advised to not be to close to the rear wall. But, of course, it depends. That's why I say people should spend £15 on an SPL and measure their room - it is not hard to do at all and allows you to tweak and see what's happening. Even just moving the speakers an inch or two can make a big difference.
Round Things > Boxes > Wires > Boxes > Walls/Ceiling/Acoustic Stuff > Ears > Brain
Any experience with digital room and speaker correction, Dave?
It is always interesting to hear from someone who has actually 'done it', all rooms of course are slightly different, even with the same basic dimensions and it is good to see that you were able to treat it successfully but in a dedicated room it is much easier than in a normal living space, which is what I was trying to get at.
Similarly speaker positioning is different every time, generally I like plenty of air around the speakers hence the one third down the room suggestion and if the speakers are good I rather like the 'near field' experience which i find minimises other room issues, particularly if you want to play quite loud.
Still no substitute for trying things for yourself and working out what works for you in your environment, I hate even the smallest hint of overhang at the bass end, so maybe my prefered speaker postioning is more extreme than most,
In the studio world there was a time when heavy eq, both digital and analog, was 'all the rage' but these days it is quite rare, the better studios built decent rooms and leave it at that. Some smaller monitors from the likes of Genelec and JBL use dsp to equalise the speaker to the room but I have little up to date experience of this.
In hi-fi terms I have only ever once used dsp room/speaker eq, with a Tact Millenium. Sounded great initially, really seemed to clean up the response but when I visited the client again he had it switched out, he reckoned 'it made every thing sound the same'. Not exactly conclusive.
Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky
I just tried this with my Logitech BoomBox Mini (Bluetooth from laptop) listening from about 2 feet away. It 'woke up' around 95 Hz and I was gratified that I could still hear it up until just over 15KHz.
Whether my ears packed up at that frequency - or the Boombox Mini did - I still have to establish (later on with my wife's headphones when she has finished with them upstairs.)
However, regardless of the thread subject matter, your 'sweep' link has cheered me up immensely this morning. 15 point something KHz detectable in at least one ear (possibly both) at my age was unexpected.
As you all were.
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Mine is about average for my age. It's good upto about 17Khz on a good day but sometimes drops to just above 16Khz on a bad day. I don't know why it changes sometimes but it does.
I've always used a sine wave sweep when demoing speakers. Apart from obviously helping to assess the frequency response it's also (more importantly IMO) helpful for picking out any nasties such as phase issues around the crossover frequencies. IME most of the speakers that play a sine wave sweep the smoothest through the crossover frequencies are usually the speakers that also sound the most natural with music.
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I mentioned earlier, non experts invariably think bass notes are deeper than they actually are and in real music there is little of any consequence below about 82 hz, bottom E on a guitar or E2 on a piano. Some instruments can go deeper, but they rarely do and even then, the contribution of the fundamental is only a small part of whole texture of the note...
Low E on a bass guitar is lower at 41hz, 82.41 is for an ordinary six string.
Be aware low bass can kill - see http://journal.borderlands.com/1996/the-sonic-weapon-of-vladimir-gavreau/ !
I'm the same age as you and I was done at 14,620
I think my sub goes down to 7hz a-l. No wonder some TV leaves me feelin' sick
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I've spent my whole life being careful to protect my hearing and it seems to be paying dividends now that I'm getting older. I've always been especially careful with music volume when listening to earphones and even used to take earplugs to raves and gigs in case they were too loud.
At it again eh Al, and wrong as usual.
I'm begining to wonder if you can actually read or are just faking it.
Where, exactly, did I say I was talking about a bass guitar?
I am well aware where bottom E is on a bass guitar, I mentioned it earlier in the thread, along with the observation that few, if any, commercial designs produce any significant output at those frequencies.
Hearing loss is an interesting subject all of it's own and given my working life of some interest to me. There is some research that suggests that hearing loss is related to stress, ie unpleasant noisy work environments have greater effect than enjoyable though equally loud music.
Personally I think the big issue is sustained exposure, a few gigs are unlikely to do serious damage but every day, a different situation.
My own damage is related to the ability to discriminate one sound from another, best explanation is that, in a noisy crowded bar (say), I find it hard to evesdrop by picking and following one conversation out of the general hubbub. First noticed this when I hit the big 50!
How are you on Dr Gavreau? I found it fascinating reading.
High frequency hearing in middle-aged males varies very widely. The most significant factor determining hearing loss is most likely to be genetic. So whilst it's a good idea to protect your hearing, it doesn't guarantee that your hearing will remain good. Most of the people you see wearing hearing aids will not have experienced any externally caused damage to their hearing. And if your hearing does remain pin sharp, the most likely explanation is lucky genes.
What classical music are you listening to?
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