Mu suspicion is that the problem is with your NAD 356 amp and not with your speakers , It has an over-bass presntation . You should check it out .The Audiolab amps for example are more laid back , Rotel more neutral act.
Well, Isac, that's what I am really thinking of. Amp. But first I dream to lend Yama 2000 for audition. It was the amp driving the CMs in the saloon when I bought them! Thanks!
1) Oppo BDP-105 - NAD 356 BEE - B&W CM1
2) Onkyo CR-N755 - Q Acoustics 2010i
I've pretty much got the right combination of good and deep bass in a small/medium sized room. It's pretty much a hybrid of old skool deep, chunky bass and modern day agility and detail. But it comes at a price: Drives you ga ga trying to achieve the right balance. Once there, bliss.
Ideal speakers: PMC DB1i or perhaps Kef R300*.
*No personal experience of these speakers but from the dimensions they should give you a huge bang for your buck.
How did you achieve the ballance, PP? With gadgets in your signature or with DB1?
No gadgets, lots of auditioning. The Arcam I had was great at low volumes but when cranked up the bass could become lumpy. Not wishing to change the speakers, I went thru years of trial and error (my budget was only £600-£700) some sounded better at higher levels than the Arcam while others ruined the overall effect. It was only when the price dropped on the Leema that I found the ideal solution.
The DB1is are surprisingly good at locking on to lower frequencies, but compared to the RS6s, naturally, they didn't reach the depths I was used to. Music they were fine but films lacked something....
Amp: Leema Pulse; Source: Naim CD5i-2, Denon 260MKII, Pro-ject XP I; Speakers: PMC TB2i
Formerly known as plastic penguin
I think the key to this issue is finding out what bass frequencies are needed for the results you want and what are not.
It is my experience that people rarely have any idea of what they are listening to in terms of frequencies, at both ends of the spectrum, though here we are talking about bass.
It is worth remembering that if an LP (vinyl) plays for 20 minutes a side, ie most comercial releases, the deep bass will be largely absent, filtered at 12db/octave with a -3db point of 70hz. But then bottom e on a bass guitar (about 41hz) is barely audible on most instruments and when equalising a bass drum for more weight or body frequencies around 150hz are usually where the lift is applied.
Most people complaining about a lack of bass in their systems are lacking mid bass punch, 100-300hz though they often think the problems are at lower frequencies, hence the misplaced desire for a subwoofer.
In smallish rooms the first thing to do is to remove the low bass, pretty much anything under 100hz can go, even if there are such frequencies on the recording you will barely hear them, the space is too small and any energy in this area will just go into moving the floor and walls and rattling the furniture.
We do so many shows in a row,
And these towns all look the same,
We just pass the time in our hotel room
And wander 'round backstage,
Till the lights come up, and we hear that crowd,
And we remember why we came.
Measure the frequency response of the room, you cant fix a problem if you dont know what it is. Also you have a room acoustics problem you cant fix it by ignoring room acoustics - the dealers are right, its physics the bass waves have to go somewhere.
Totally agree Altruistic. Vinyl lps have plenty of bass content below 70hz after RIAA equalisation has been applied.
Also, if I put my biggest speakers (with an extended frequency response) in my 10m2 room I can hear hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz on rock, pop, reggae, dance, organ music recordings, as well as when I try them with test tones.
I find that lots of furniture including bookcasses / CD / vinyl storage, a sofa, carpet helps to produce a cleaner bass in any room, including small ones.
How does one know that we are hearing 30hz or 100hz??
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Here's a 20 Hz - 20 KHz sine wave sweep. Clicky
Listening to this my 10" sub makes a tiny bit of noise from 20 Hz but only starts having proper output from 32 Hz.
The 5.25" woofer in the Neutrons start making noise at about 45 Hz and have proper output by 55 Hz.
PC > AVI Neutron Five 2.1
Sony NWZ-A847 64GB Walkman > Westone UM3x
Thanks, Steve! Useful!
Everything's on the interweb,you just need to find it (or be pointed to it by some one else).
Even without any proper measuring equipment listening to a sine wave sweep can sometimes be used as a rough guide for picking out any major peaks or troughs too.
Holy EDITED you've clearly been watching the Ipcress File.
Listen to me... listen to me... listen to me...
Also, if I put my biggest speakers (with an extended frequency response) in my 10m2 room I can hear hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz on rock, pop, reggae, dance, organ music recordings, as well as ......
Sorry. I was referring to above. Thanks for the tones tho.
Helps, but is not the only factor, you need to look at bandwidth, dynamic range and maximum recording level. Modern cutting lathes have variable groove spacing which is actually the biggest single factor in maximising playing time.
There are plenty of really obvious examples, compilation albums for example are often low level with minimal bass, but with any album the balancing act between playback level, bass bandwidth and playing time is a difficult one.
CD is clearly different but again, most people in my aquaintance (and when tested) tend to judge bass notes as being much lower than they actually are.
There are various ways, including feeding the signal through a variable active crossover such as an Ashly xr1001, where the crossover is used to cut off frequencies above a variable point. And gradually reducing this variable point down to 40hz.
It sounds crazily horrible when you do this. Like listening to a fair ground booming out music the other side of a large park - except much worse.
You can also do the opposite and cut off music below a variable point, which makes the system sound like a transistor radio, or like a lean hi-fi system when you set the cut off point right down at 40hz.
Are u suggesting this has been done? I was referring to being able to 'hear lots of content from 30hz to 100hz in rock & pop'. Not using instruments to measure which is clearly a different scenario.
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