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the record spot's picture
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RE: Audibly transparent

Blu_Blu wrote:

Fair enough, and I'm sorry if I've offended you. I'll stay away from here and stop the nonsense, and you stop all the snide remarks aimed at ADM owners who recommend their speakers, just like everybody else on here does.

Deal?

 

Get it right Max; what I get narked at is the "there's only one way" approach and anything else is crap.  There should be a happy co-existance, but you need to review what's been posted on your other forum home over the years.  And you included.  The speakers are good products and you can search my posts where I've recommended them.  It's the additional sauce that's served up with them from some that sours the taste.  

Apology accepted, likewise in return.  Your choice if you want to leave, or stay, but sticking with the one forum name might be a benefit.... just sayin'

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RE: Audibly transparent

altruistic.lemon wrote:

Blu_Blu wrote:

You are off your rocker, Spot. You can't string more than two posts together without mentioning the AVI Forum, you got banned, get over it!!

 

And please, stop talking absolute nonsense about your speakers, did you not make a big enough fool of yourself the last time you declared that they have "deep bass"? They're tiny speakers with 4inch drivers, do you not realise that they simply cannot reproduce deep bass?

Hey mate! Take it easy. No need to attack someone for stating his views, certainly more politely than you do. I was one who said small drivers can't do deep bass, but Record Spot explained his position well , did anything but make a fool of himself - and can you tell the difference between 50hz and 55 hz, for example? Fair goes, mate.

Fair enough Al, all I would like to see on here is fairness, there's no conspiricy theory, ADM owners recommend their speakers just as you do yours and everybody else theirs, and if the RS can stop suggesting that they do so as part of some cleverly contrived viral marketing campaign, then I'll be happy  :cheers:
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RE: Audibly transparent

Blu_Blu wrote:

...and if the RS can stop suggesting that they do so as part of some cleverly contrived viral marketing campaign, then I'll be happy  :cheers:

 

I don't.  

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RE: Audibly transparent

Hi Max  :wave:

Just for the record, as I know how much you value the truth........I don't work in the "Foo Trade" and never have.

As for brainwashing........my NLP course is obviously paying dividends!  Wink

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Audibly transparent

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Covenanter wrote:
Ferrari fanboys Smile

If the Ferrari was technically the better car, I'd choose the McLaren. I hate Ferrari with as much passion as the Tifosi love Ferrari. 

So in answer to your question, preference and prejudice.

:)

But why? Were you bitten by a horse when a child?

Chris

It's Man U syndrome. People who follow the herd because it is seen as "cool" to do so.Thatt is something I dislike. Therefore, I hate Ferrari and Man U. To state two examples. 

[/quote]

Have you driven a Ferrari?  I was lucky enough to be bought a "track day" at Thruxton and amongst other cars I drove a Ferrari 355.  It was the most sublime driving experience I have ever had, a supreme piece of engineering.  (I also drove a 430, the property of a fellow director at my company, and that was also wonderful although I nearly wrote it off hitting the rev limiter when overtaking.)  Ferraris are wonderful cars and it is foolish to ignore them because of prejudice!

Similarly Man U are a great side.  I've suported Spurs all my life and always will but I admire Man U.  I hope we beat them tomorrow but actually I won't be upset if we don't because they are admirable.

Chris

PS I drove a Subaru Impreza for years because as a road car I think it was almost impossible to beat.  About as much fun as is possible with your clothes on.  A Ferrari is mad as a road car as is a Maclaren.

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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RE: Audibly transparent

FrankHarveyHiFi wrote:

Covenanter wrote:
Ferrari fanboys Smile

If the Ferrari was technically the better car, I'd choose the McLaren. I hate Ferrari with as much passion as the Tifosi love Ferrari. 

So in answer to your question, preference and prejudice.

:)

But why? Were you bitten by a horse when a child?

Chris

It's Man U syndrome. People who follow the herd because it is seen as "cool" to do so.Thatt is something I dislike. Therefore, I hate Ferrari and Man U. To state two examples. 

[/quote]

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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RE: Audibly transparent

Covenanter wrote:

PS I drove a Subaru Impreza for years because as a road car I think it was almost impossible to beat.  About as much fun as is possible with your clothes on.  A Ferrari is mad as a road car as is a Maclaren.

I was lucky enough to drive Subarus as well......didn't have the awful image of the Escort Cosworth.

Very nice car!

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Audibly transparent

Covenanter wrote:
PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

The world?! Wow...

In that case, you can buy from my colleague who has no interest in cars whatsoever, so he doesn't have the same irrational view of "the world".

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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RE: Audibly transparent

Covenanter wrote:

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

what a bizarre statement!

I am sure you have unwittingly bought produce of various kinds from atheists, Buddhists, born again Christians, homeopaths, conspiracy theorists, and people who believe in elves and goblins. 

None of the produce they supplied you with was any less (or higher) quality as a result, and you almost certainly got what you asked for.

Why should buying Hifi be any different, and what possible effect does the salespersons own beliefs have on the products you choose to demo and/or buy when doing business with them?

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RE: Audibly transparent

WinterRacer wrote:
Apologies if this has already been covered. A believe this is a good definition of audible transparency: "Ethan Winer, an acoustics expert, states that gear passing all these criteria will not contribute any audible sound of its own and in fact sound the same as any other gear passing the same criteria. - Frequency Response: 20 hz to 20 Khz +/- 0.1 dB - Distortion: At least 100 dB (0.001%) below the music while others consider 80 dB (0.01%) to be sufficient and Ethan’s own tests confirm that. - Noise: At least 100 dB below the music - Time Based Errors – In the digital world this is jitter and the 100 dB rule applies for jitter components." I agree with this definition, and believe it is the only sensible goal of hi-fi. Clearly, this has to apply at your chosen listening level, e.g., when your amp starts clipping it will no longer be audibly transparent. Speakers are the component furthest from being audibly transparent, which is why many people recommend spending most of your budget on them. Obviously, there's nothing wrong with personal preference, people differ in their tolerance to different types of distortion. BTW, to me'system matching' (beyond basic compatibility) is about adding one kind of distortion to another to mask each components shortcomings, e.g., using bandwidth distortion to mask IM distortion around a speaker's crossover.

 

WinterRacer, I don't understand what the measurements mean.  What does +/- 0.1 dB mean with regard to frequency response?

Are you able to link to a piece of equipment online and explain how to assess whether it is transparent or not?

I'm a little confused - would this mean that using the same source and speaker that any combination of CD/amp would sound identical if both were considered transparent or had the same level of transparency?

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RE: Audibly transparent

I found this comment on another forum that I think sums things up nicely:-

 

This is a subject of endless debate on internet fora devoted to hi-fi gear. In theory, an amp that did everything perfectly should sound no different than another perfect amp, but alas, none are perfect. The debate generally breaks down into two camps- those who believe that measurements and testing by objective criteria can describe an amp's sonics- thus, an amp with a more even frequency balance, lower forms of distortion, etc. will be more accurate- and shouldn't sound any different than another amp with the same specifications. But all that may tell us is that the specifications and measurements don't adequately describe what we are hearing.

And the second camp- less heavily dependent on objective criteria and bases evaluations on how the gear sounds in a given system. In the US, Julian Hirsch is usually given credit (or blame) for the notion that all well designed amps should sound the same. The merit of this view is often supported by blind testing where listeners, given the opportunity to compare a change in equipment without knowing what the change is, have great difficulty in making accurate distinctions. But that may also be a failing of the test procedure, in using small snippets of music and making quick A/B comparisons.
 

In my view, different amps sound different, and much depends on the associated equipment. I respect measurements as information, but also trust my ears."

 

In short, you probably need to do a bit of both - check out the spec sheet, then have a listen to a few items and see what works for you.

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RE: Audibly transparent

gregvet wrote:

Covenanter wrote:

PS I hope you'll forgive me but I wouldn't buy hifi from somebody with such an irrational view of the world.

Chris

what a bizarre statement!

I am sure you have unwittingly bought produce of various kinds from atheists, Buddhists, born again Christians, homeopaths, conspiracy theorists, and people who believe in elves and goblins. 

None of the produce they supplied you with was any less (or higher) quality as a result, and you almost certainly got what you asked for.

Why should buying Hifi be any different, and what possible effect does the salespersons own beliefs have on the products you choose to demo and/or buy when doing business with them?

Generally speaking one doesn't know but given that this guy has told us what he believes I won't be heading to his shop!

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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RE: Audibly transparent

Two different systems but with identical measurements can produce a different sound?  Is that correct?

If so, perhaps specifications and measurements of transparency aren't as important as simply listening.

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RE: Audibly transparent

I believe he only works there. Either way I still don't get why it would make any difference to you as a customer.

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RE: Audibly transparent

gregvet wrote:

I believe he only works there. Either way I still don't get why it would make any difference to you as a customer.

Because to a certain extent it's nice to think that one can depend on the expertise of the person in the shop.  After all they will have had more opportunity to listen to kit then you will ever have.

Chris

Marantz PM8005 / SA8005 / KEF R700s / AKG K702

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