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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

Again (deliberately?) missing my point. I didn't say ATCs are perfect speakers / that they measure perfectly / that I have any opinion as regards them v LS50s. I was making the very simple point that the LS50s are *not* perfect speakers. As a consequence, no-one can say that speaker X is worse than the LS50s if thy haven't heard speaker X. 

 

The only comparison I'm aware from people who've heard both comes from WHF. FWIW they think the 11s are better. 

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

BenLaw wrote:

FWIW jaxwired has previously made clear he doesn't like the ATC sound. That's an opinion he's perfectly entitled to, but it doesn't warrant his subjective opinion becoming some sort of objective yet illogical fact. 

Actually I believe I've always said that the ATCs I've owned were superb at everything up from about 80hz.  They just lack bass.  With a really good (fast) sub they would be excellent.  

The LS50s are not particularly bass powerful either, but they are better balanced across all frequencies. They image as good as any speaker I've ever heard. They are transparent and detailed but lack the sterility and coldness that the ATCs sometimes project. Now I admit it is possible that the new curved version of the SCM11 has made strides that address the aspects I feel pull the LS50s ahead of them, but it seems unlikely given the similarity to the old version. 

As for my comment that nothing bests the LS50 at that price.  I really just mean that IMO (and that's all it is, and all it can ever be is opinions), the LS50 has the strongest combination of talents of anything near the price.  There are other small speakers I'm very fond of (like PMCs and dynaudios) but an honest assessment of all the strengths and weaknesses of all the small speakers I've owned and heard puts the KEFs on top. Given what a monumental achievement that is I'd be very surprised to see the new ATC best the KEFs.  But, anything is possible.  

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

BenLaw wrote:

Again (deliberately?) missing my point...

I feel your pain Ben but this is a hifi forum so your rational logic has no place here.

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

jaxwired wrote:

BenLaw wrote:

FWIW jaxwired has previously made clear he doesn't like the ATC sound. That's an opinion he's perfectly entitled to, but it doesn't warrant his subjective opinion becoming some sort of objective yet illogical fact. 

Actually I believe I've always said that the ATCs I've owned were superb at everything up from about 80hz.  They just lack bass.  With a really good (fast) sub they would be excellent.  

The LS50s are not particularly bass powerful either, but they are better balanced across all frequencies. They image as good as any speaker I've ever heard. They are transparent and detailed but lack the sterility and coldness that the ATCs sometimes project. Now I admit it is possible that the new curved version of the SCM11 has made strides that address the aspects I feel pull the LS50s ahead of them, but it seems unlikely given the similarity to the old version. 

As for my comment that nothing bests the LS50 at that price.  I really just mean that IMO (and that's all it is, and all it can ever be is opinions), the LS50 has the strongest combination of talents of anything near the price.  There are other small speakers I'm very fond of (like PMCs and dynaudios) but an honest assessment of all the strengths and weaknesses of all the small speakers I've owned and heard puts the KEFs on top. Given what a monumental achievement that is I'd be very surprised to see the new ATC best the KEFs.  But, anything is possible.  

    Agree with you on the ATC's  bass jaxwired.

                  As you say the LS50 is a more even combination of talents.

                  In fact reflecting on the ATC 11's I had, the bass might be too clean and textured for my taste.

                   Will have to see if the new curved model is any different.

                  Reading WHF 's review suggests not...............:)

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

jaxwired wrote:

The LS50s are not particularly bass powerful either, but they are better balanced across all frequencies. They image as good as any speaker I've ever heard. They are transparent and detailed but lack the sterility and coldness that the ATCs sometimes project. Now I admit it is possible that the new curved version of the SCM11 has made strides that address the aspects I feel pull the LS50s ahead of them, but it seems unlikely given the similarity to the old version.

 

Well I disagree with your description of the 11s as ever sounding cold or sterile. That's fine, we're allowed to have different personal preferences. However, if your comparison is accurate for you, then the added 'richness / warmth' (or whatever the opposite of cold and sterile would be) that the LS50s have is highly unlikely to mean they're the speakers for me.

 

Quote:
As for my comment that nothing bests the LS50 at that price.  I really just mean that IMO (and that's all it is, and all it can ever be is opinions), the LS50 has the strongest combination of talents of anything near the price.  There are other small speakers I'm very fond of (like PMCs and dynaudios) but an honest assessment of all the strengths and weaknesses of all the small speakers I've owned and heard puts the KEFs on top. Given what a monumental achievement that is I'd be very surprised to see the new ATC best the KEFs.  But, anything is possible.  

 

You're still missing the point that (i) they're not at the same price, (ii) you seem to be ruling out all potential future speakers from any manufacturer as 'besting' the LS50s, which is nonsensical.

 

However, I seriously doubt (and nothing I've read suggestes otherwise) that ATC have changed the fundamental sound of their speakers. Therefore, as I said to alchemist earlier, I think it very unlikely that you will prefer the new 11s to the LS50s. Each to their own; I think they are catering to different ears and tastes.

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RE: ATC's New passive range

I will say the scm 11s are very good speakers and I can fully understand people loving them.  Like you said we all have different taste. 

 

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

jaxwired wrote:

I will say the scm 11s are very good speakers and I can fully understand people loving them.  Like you said we all have different taste. 

 

                        Agreed, still not quite sure about the grill on the new model.

                        On saying that i wish KEF had a grill for the LS50's

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RE: ATC's New passive range

jaxwired wrote:

I will say the scm 11s are very good speakers

Hi jaxwired

and the new curved SCM11 monitors are significantly better  Smile

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Musicraft (Derby) - Specialist Hi-Fi, AV & Multimedia dealer

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RE: They look lovely with the

They look lovely with the grills off but I'm not sure about the fishnet look with the grills on. Standard cloth grills would have looked much nicer with those curved cabinets IMO.

I'd like to have a listen to these as I'm a fan of the 'ATC sound'.

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

BenLaw wrote:
I'd be interested if you let us know how many comparative auditions you do for people and what the results are.

I'll put together a graph for you. Or would you prefer a pie chart? Whichever you choose, I'll use some really nice colours Smile

                   How's that graph coming along ?............:)

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

alchemist 1 wrote:
David@FrankHarvey wrote:
BenLaw wrote:
I'd be interested if you let us know how many comparative auditions you do for people and what the results are.

I'll put together a graph for you. Or would you prefer a pie chart? Whichever you choose, I'll use some really nice colours Smile

How's that graph coming along ?............:)

Just colouring it in now, but my red felt pen is running out....

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

BenLaw wrote:
I didn't say ATCs are perfect speakers / that they measure perfectly / that I have any opinion as regards them v LS50s. I was making the very simple point that the LS50s are *not* perfect speakers. As a consequence, no-one can say that speaker X is worse than the LS50s if thy haven't heard speaker X.
No speaker is perfect. Any comparisons, even those made by those who have heard both, are purely personal.

Quote:
The only comparison I'm aware from people who've heard both comes from WHF. FWIW they think the 11s are better.
Unless someone has accurately measured both and can state which is technically better, any comparisons will be purely personal. Unless the LS50s are mentioned in the mag version of the review, I don't see any comparison by WHF.

BenLaw wrote:
You're still missing the point that (i) they're not at the same price...
Since when did price come into things? Sure, the WHF awards are split into price points for obvious reasons, but I wasn't aware that speakers could only be compared (and can only compare) to other speakers if they are the same price.

Here you have two speakers. Both have been designed with one goal in mind, but differing technologies have given the buyer two similar, but also very different, end results. Those who are actually looking to buy (rather than defending a particular corner on a forum) can compare both side by side and choose whichever one they feel suits their listening habits, their music choices, their system, their room, their budget, and their own personal preference.

The new SCM11s are very similar as far as bass is concerned, so anyone wasn't keen on the originals, chances are, they're not going to like the new ones too much. But they have been vastly improved with regards to the new HF unit. They're more detailed, and those that felt that the original SCM11s were a little laid back with regards to the higher frequencies, will more than likely love the new version.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

Something else maybe to consider as well.

KEFs core business is, as far as I'm aware HiFi. That is to say domestic whereas ATCs pedigree is in monitor loudspeakers as it always has been. The fact that the ATCs ( all of them ) work in the domestic environment is a bonus. Engineers prefer to mix on a closed box which is where the SCM11 excels. That in itself makes it difficult to compare the two speakers. Hence the only 'real' comparison for the SCM11 would be another closed box loudspeaker.

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RE: ATC's New passive range RE: ATC's New passive range

David@FrankHarvey wrote:

Unless the LS50s are mentioned in the mag version of the review, I don't see any comparison by WHF.

 

The comparison and its location has been referred to about four times in this thread, initially by alchemist, but I know you don't like reading other people's posts when it gets in the way of bleating on. Here it is for you again:

 

http://www.whathifi.com/review/atc-scm-11-2013/user-reviews

 

Ketan Bharadia said: 'We think this new version of ATC SCM11 is clearly better [than the LS50s], but remember there's £400 between them in price.'


 

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RE: ATC's New passive range

BenLaw wrote:
The comparison and its location has been referred to about four times in this thread, initially by alchemist, but I know you don't like reading other people's posts when it gets in the way of bleating on.

Apologies for not being able to read every single post in this thread - work gets in the way sometimes...

As for the opinions section of the reviews, I generally don't read them.

Again, whether price is a factor or not is up to the individual - but I suppose with the SCM11 costing 50% more, it will more than likely be a factor for many.

And do feel free to point out any "bleating". This just seems to be more negativity against myself on your part. I'm off for lunch and to watch some films.

Oh, and one of our regulars will be coming in very soon and bringing his original SCM11s in to directly compare to the new ones. I'll pass on his thoughts (whatever they are) if anyone is interested.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

"Long is the way, and hard, that out of hell leads up to light"

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