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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

jcbrum wrote:

Isn't the right to win happiness the whole implied reason for the Declaration, and the consequent 'War of Independence' (American), which developed pretty much into a world war ?

The Colony were very unhappy with British Rule, and complained bitterly that they were unhappy, and asserted their right to be independantly happy, by armed revolution.

JC

No, no, no.

The complaint of the colonies was on a matter of (political and fiscal) principle: 'no taxation without representation'. The British government imposed taxes on colonial trade, but the colonies had no representation at Westminster. It had very little to do with 'happiness'.

The 'happiness' clause in fact had more to do with religion than politics. The Consitution was intended to guarantee the religious freedoms of a very diverse and highly sectarian group of Christians, many of whom were descended from people who had fled religious persecution in Europe and for whom New England was a modern realization of the Promised Land of the Old Testament. 'The pursuit of happiness' was a necessarily secular formula designed to satisfy the demands of people of a very diverse religious beliefs and practices. It is of a piece with the Constitution's insistence of the complete separation of church and state.

The War of Independence didn't develop 'pretty much into a world war'. It was confined to the American colonies, although France did get involved on the colonists' side, and Britain recruited quite a few German soldiers, who were in effect sold into military service by their rulers. But the War of Independence was on a far smaller scale than the war that immediately preceded it, the Seven Years' War (1756-63), which saw the European powers engaged across Germany and Poland, the Mediterranean, the Caribbean, India, and Canada. 

:cheers:

Matt

This train … carries saints and sinners / This train … carries losers and winners / This train … carries whores and gamblers / This train … carries lost souls.

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

Hmmm, thanks Matt.  I take your points, but I think it's important to distinguish between the tenets of the three relevant documents.

 

1.   Declaration of Independence.

 

2.   American Constitution.

 

3.  Bill of Rights, and ongoing amendments, contained in the full amended version of the Constitution.

 

In particular it was the Bill of Rights which addressed religious freedoms.

 

Re-reading them, gives specific information on their causes.

 

JC

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

jcbrum wrote:

chebby wrote:

jcbrum wrote:

p.s. Happiness is an unalienable right, according to the American Declaration of Independence, 1776.    -    JC

"The pursuit of happiness"  is one of the unalienable rights described.

It says nothing about any right to win that pursuit.

Isn't the right to win happiness the whole implied reason for the Declaration, and the consequent 'War of Independence' (American), which developed pretty much into a world war ?

Your version says that happiness is a right.

The Declaration itself states that it is your right to pursue happiness. (But doesn't guarantee it.)

This difference is clear.

 

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

BenLaw wrote:

Two thoughts occur:

 

A lot of the semantic arguments may be resolved by borrowing a concept from poverty. There could be 'absolute' luxury (all items that are non-essential to survival) and 'relative' luxury (taking into account what is normal in any particular society). Although I'm afraid either way and even in this country dedicated music making components costing in excess of one or two hundred pounds would constitute a luxury. 

 

Good points.

 

A car is a luxury (Absolute), but there are still classes of cars termed "luxury cars" (Relative). I agree that whether you define luxury as absolute or relative, what we generally consider HiFi (even entry level) would fall into the category of luxury. 

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

chebby wrote:

If you don't need it then it's a luxury.

No-one needs a hi-fi.

 

Thread should have ended after post #2!  Totally agree.

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

chebby wrote:
I would say - based on anecdotal evidence from numerous IT colleagues over the years - that dedicated audio systems are a very low priority that fall waaaay behind cars, holidays, cameras, social spending, the latest smartphones, tablets, coffee making machines and doing up their homes.

And therein is the entire problem of the hi-fi industry, from manufacturers to retailers to press, which has failed to address the point it is fighting those industries you mention for consumers' discretionary spending, and has instead for far too long been inward looking, and fighting itself.

High-quality audio, which was once a must-buy for most people clutching their first pay-packet or student grant, has failed to maintain itself as something sexy or desirable, and so it's right off the radar when people have some spare cash to spend.

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

BenLaw wrote:

Two thoughts occur:

A lot of the semantic arguments may be resolved by borrowing a concept from poverty. There could be 'absolute' luxury (all items that are non-essential to survival) and 'relative' luxury (taking into account what is normal in any particular society). Although I'm afraid either way and even in this country dedicated music making components costing in excess of one or two hundred pounds would constitute a luxury. 

Nicely summed up.

It also raises the question of what constitutes "Hi-Fi". Is it anything that produces a sound, or is there a minimum standard that needs to be reached?

BenLaw wrote:

Second, there's an interesting and very stark correlation between those seeking to justify their hifi as a non-luxury and the cable believers / subjectivists (and vice versa with the objectivists). Any thoughts as to why?

There may well be a correlation due to a certain mindset.....which is interesting.

Taking my slightly random figure of £1k-£1.6 as being modest and not luxury, I suspect most contributors to this thread, would indeed have luxury systems.

 

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

spiny norman wrote:

chebby wrote:
I would say - based on anecdotal evidence from numerous IT colleagues over the years - that dedicated audio systems are a very low priority that fall waaaay behind cars, holidays, cameras, social spending, the latest smartphones, tablets, coffee making machines and doing up their homes.

And therein is the entire problem of the hi-fi industry, from manufacturers to retailers to press, which has failed to address the point it is fighting those industries you mention for consumers' discretionary spending, and has instead for far too long been inward looking, and fighting itself.

High-quality audio, which was once a must-buy for most people clutching their first pay-packet or student grant, has failed to maintain itself as something sexy or desirable, and so it's right off the radar when people have some spare cash to spend.

 

I agree. I actually think that part of the problem is failing to really establish HiFi brands as luxury items in the way a Mercedes or a Rolex is. 

 

Why do people buy luxury watches? Is it really because they are obssessed with having "the most accurate time" or "exquisite Swiss craftmanship"? Chances are that much of it has to do with the perception that these luxury items are things to be desired and a sign of success and good taste... 

 

Your point reminds me of a really silly controversy a few years ago with the major American HiFi Mag: Stereophile. The mag had the "audacity" to allow a luxury car brand to advertise in an issue (instead of the usual HiFi brand adverts), and that upset many audiophiles... Since they felt the mag should be purely about HiFi, so even the adverts should be HiFI... 

 

How do you attract non-audiophiles, if you spend all your time catering to audiophiles? 

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

CnoEvil wrote:
Taking my slightly random figure of £1k-£1.6 as being modest and not luxury, I suspect most contributors to this thread, would indeed have luxury systems.

 

Sure, but that range for "modest" would only be so for audiophiles. I'm sure the average person's idea of a stereo is more inline with a £200 Panasonic or Sony minisystem. They would likely think you'd gone mad suggesting that £1.6K is in anyway modest.

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

Luxury is a very relative term. I suppose owning what's rare in your society is luxury in today's world. There was a time when TV was luxury, then washing machine, then dishwasher etc. but now almost everyone in my society owns them. So they are necessities. 

I don't care what's luxury & what's not. If I like it, I buy it (as long as I can afford it)!  Dirol

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

Ajani wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:
Taking my slightly random figure of £1k-£1.6 as being modest and not luxury, I suspect most contributors to this thread, would indeed have luxury systems.

Sure, but that range for "modest" would only be so for audiophiles. I'm sure the average person's idea of a stereo is more inline with a £200 Panasonic or Sony minisystem. They would likely think you'd gone mad suggesting that £1.6K is in anyway modest.

I suppose our perception of a luxury comes down to what our personal interests are, and Opportunity Cost......£8k for a car is often seen as reasonable, yet £1k for a Hifi is considered insane.

The same people who might raise an eyebrow at a £1.6k system, probably wouldn't bat an eyelid about a stag weekend abroad, paying an annual fee for a Golf Club / Fitness Club, or the purchase of an Apple Mac.....though all these should probably be considered luxuries.

This is not making a case that I'm right about my random figure, only that people have their own "personal skew" about what should be labelled as mad.

What is the least you can spend (new and not heavily discounted), in order that the system (all in) would be considered as Hi Fidelity?....should  Hifi be labelled as anything that produces a sound in stereo?

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

Ajani wrote:

How do you attract non-audiophiles, if you spend all your time catering to audiophiles? 

For just one example ... do a Ruark.

They got out of the rut of being just another decent little UK speaker manufacturer and started giving people superb radios, slick one-box mini-systems and (now) frickin' amazing radiograms!  (I saw one the other day and wanted one on first sight

They got their marketing right (Daily and Sunday newspapers, gadget mags, lifestyle and design mags etc.) and they got into online sales and John Lewis branches, Selfridges, Heals, Conran shops, hi-fi shops, Amazon, Luxury Hotels and ...  well ...  loads of other outlets a 'hair shirt'  purist 'audiophile' wouldn't be seen dead in for his purchases.

And, sadly it will be mostly 'his' in the 'audiophile' world, which is a whole other problem (and a whole other debate) but a huge incentive to get out and find the 51 percent of the population (and their credit cards) who've never heard of you.

Ruark are a  very near neighbour to Rega (same industrial park) and used to be a fraction of Rega's size. I'll bet I know who the 'daddy' is now Smile

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

(pl. luxuries) the state of great comfort and extravagant living: he lived a life of luxury.• an inessential, desirable item that is expensive or difficult to obtain: luxuries like raspberry vinegar and state-of-the-art CD players| he considers bananas a luxury.

 

My hi-fi is a tool, I use it at work. But I still think yes it is a luxury.

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

CnoEvil wrote:

Ajani wrote:

CnoEvil wrote:
Taking my slightly random figure of £1k-£1.6 as being modest and not luxury, I suspect most contributors to this thread, would indeed have luxury systems.

Sure, but that range for "modest" would only be so for audiophiles. I'm sure the average person's idea of a stereo is more inline with a £200 Panasonic or Sony minisystem. They would likely think you'd gone mad suggesting that £1.6K is in anyway modest.

 

What is the least you can spend (new and not heavily discounted), in order that the system (all in) would be considered as Hi Fidelity?....should  Hifi be labelled as anything that produces a sound in stereo?

NO

 OPPO 105EU, Arcam AVR450, Boston Acoustics M340. Dac: Musical fedility V90.

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RE: Are HiFi products luxury items?

Native_bon wrote:

 NO

I agree....but where should the line be drawn?

"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we should let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines."  Nelson Pass

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