How much to budget for DAC?

buying just another piece of gear is not improving things but is just 'box swapping'.

you need to understand first what kind of sound you like, then see what your system lacks to deliver that sound and then understand what gear will deliver that kind of sound.

just introducing a dac will not change much. 

if you are looking for accurate sound (as opposed to warm, bright, bassy or otherwise distorted), I can try making some recommendations. 

my general recommendation these days is a streamer or computer as source and carefully chosen active speakers.

I agree with a lot of what Al has said ie.

- Understand exactly what sound you are after, and if necessary, check out different Dacs from £500 to £1000 (eg. Rega, MF, Audiolab, Arcam etc)

- Seriously consider replacing your CDP (and a possible Dac) with a good streamer.

Hi almaatakz & cnoevil,Thanks for your prompt replies.  Bit confused about the "box swapping bit".  I know I haven't bought any serious hifi gear for 10 years now but I thought that was the hole point of hifi separates. ie. you identify an issue with your sound then discuss it with folk/ dealers, then demo some gear, try it at home, then buy it and er well box swap?  Certainly that is how I built my current system over the years.I don't have sound issues with the Caspian/ Arcam / MA sound and have been totally happy with it since 2003.  Having been a musician, I like  a natural sound (uncoloured) and want to hear the music as it was intended (better or for worse) and my hifi gives me that.  The pc based music is similar but a few notches below in overall sound quality, so it is this I want to influence.I currently use the Yamaha as a DAC, but this is actually a surround processor and part of my AV  set up and cost £300 in 2001 (highly rated in its day). You say that adding a dedicated DAC won't change much but that is like saying a £1000 cd player won't change much over a £300 one?  I would expect significant improvement if the other system components were good enough and I think the amp & speakers would allow an upgrade and wouldn't necessarily need to be changed.You both mentioned streaming and I have been looking up Naim gear just recently, so what would you recommend?By the way, is this the right forum or should I post in computer media?

Adding DAC will change things certainly, but when introducing a DAC into your system please keep in mind two things. Firstly, your DAC+transport (media player) should outperform or at least be on par with Roksan cdp, otherwise you will not be satisfied. Secondly, your Media Center may or may not be a good transport depending on how you're going to use it. Will it be your main audio source to Arcam? Or will be continue using your AV receiver for movies? If latter, then I do not believe you will hain much by adding a separate DAC, even if you spend some serious money on it. Just let us know your purpose, so it will be easier to make suggestions to you.

Hi dragon76,Thanks for your response.  You have hit on my dilemma which is what will match the Roksan and at what budget.  Of this I have no experience. I use the media centre as a dedicated music server and don't use it for dvd.  The Yamaha processor is supplied by a Sony BDP via component outs and will stay that way as it is secondary to the hifi.  So the DAC will be for music only.  I will add a NAS device ( possibly Synology) to my router at some point in the future for back - ups, which are currently performed by an aging XP pc.  I would consider streaming directly from the NAS via ethernet if this could give a better sonic solution, although I like the control I have of Foobar2000 from the ipad, as I use the second speaker outputs from the Arcam in another room.

Hi hdmad, thanks for clarification. It definitely would be unwise for me to definitely suggest any DAC with certainty that it would outplay Roksan, but my feeling is that DACs around £500-600 will be at least as good as your CDP. I may be a bit purist in everything what's related to computer based playback, but still would like to note that if you will use this setup for music only your existing HP center may not be the best transport for your future DAC. I have a strong belief that with mediocre transport even very expensive dacs will not be able to fully correct and clean up incoming digital signal, but some people may disagree with me. The HP is as I believe essentially a tower PC with all the noicy components, like HDD, DVD drive, power supply, fans, unnecessary features, etc. If only used for music, a better option would be to migrate to a smaller, power efficient, no frills and fanless micro-ITX desktop, which would serve you well. I believe for your budget you may assemble a good PC+DAC system. But again - these are just my thoughts and others may have different opinions on this and I certainly appreciate this.

Hi Dragon76,That's good advice thank you.  The hp is the slimline, which is essentially a mini tower, fans and all.  I had changed the HD video card (with fan) for an Asus equivalent with no fan in an effort to improve things, but had kind of left it there.  I am running Foobar2000 with wasabi directly to the realtek chipset (by passing windows controls) and this is supposed to give a bit perfect output, but I haven't tested it as yet, but will now do so.  However, I guess you don't have dedicated music pc's for no reason.  My feeling is similar to yours in that I should be able to do the setup justice up to the £600 mark and that could leave money towards a dedicated music pc/leads etc.  I note that you are using the M Dac with a pc music player and with some very good hifi components, so they obviously do them justice.  I would be interested to know what pc you are using or what you may recommend me looking at?  I must say that I am not precious about buying and trying gear as it can easily be sold on and have found that by careful research and consideration you can actually surprise yourself.

Before you go off spending money, have you optimised your music rips to make sure that you have the best sound quality possible?

If so, a cheap and audibly transparent DAC can be had for around £100. Depending on features and amounts of connections required, you might not need anything else and certainly the sound quality will not be better (it might sound different though).

If it is still available the Epiphany E-DAC is worth a look at, particularly at less than £90 sale price.

Hi Overdose,Ripping is done via dbpoweramp with AccurateRip to Flac.  I also have three drives to choose from which helps minimise the read errors.Like the sound of a cheaper DAC but as I mentioned in my first post I am looking for improvement over existing sound. I will certainly look up the E DAC though.

hdmag, Foobar+wasapi is definitely an important step in getting proper sound from PC. As to address your question re my dedicated music server, it is based on Intel atom 525 mini itx motherboard with SSD and external power supply, so the whole thing is small, fanless with no moving parts, no unnecessary features. I run it on Windows 7 optimized for sound reproduction (with many background services disabled). I also use Foobar, which I find very convenient and of high quality. If you ever decide to change your HP, then there are number of ready made mini-itx options, inluding some Shuttle PC products, so it won't be any issue in buying/assembling it for not much money. There are some very good resources on the web that you can tap on for more professional advise on this matter. Hope this helps.

Thought I would update this post with where I have got to.  I bought an Audiolab M-DAC after lots of research, which I ran continuously for 7 days, 24 hours a day, to burn in.  I took on board advice from Dragon76 and have optimised my Win 7 media pc for music use.  Have not gone as far as a fanless PSU yet but it is on the cards for the near future.   Got a lot of info from the following links:

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/wiki/index.php/Windows_7_Audio_Playback_-_Setup_Guide

http://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcare/downloads/Windows_7_Optimization_Guide.pdf

I also invested in a decent USB cable (vertere) and I am glad I did so, as I could not get the bitperfect test to work using a standard USB cable/pc config.  With the Vertere and the tweaks to Win 7 the bitperfect test passed first time on both test files.

The sound has blown me away with the level of detail, imaging, separation of instruments, awesome voices and overall neutrality.  Everything just sounds right and it's like the performers are in the room with you.  I wasn't expecting this from a pc!  My Roksan CD player has slightly better control of the bass, and is more tuneful, but can't dig up quite as much detail as the M-DAC which just sounds clearer.  Also,  the M-DAC makes a better job of poorer or older recordings, where the Roksan would render them harder to listen to and I wasn't expecting that.  I have only skipped through the filter settings but do prefer the Optimal Transient ones.

I wanted to move to pc based music but with a similar quality to the Roksan CD player and I can happily say I have achieved it.  The M-DAC is a stunning piece of kit for the money (mine was £499 from Audio Affair) and with the right pc config & cables easily does justice to £3k's worth of hifi kit.

Hi

I notice that your HP media centre has a coax output? well had you thought of looking at a second hand standalone DAC such as the Meridian 566?

I have owned one for approaching 15 years and the sound from it is so detailed, musical and involving.

Currently you can pick them up for around £300 and as Meridian are a British high end company, you will still have support if in the unlikely event it goes wrong.

I have my cd Transport, DVD player, DAB/FM Tuner and Sky HD box all going through it.

Have a look at the link below.

http://www.hifiideas.com/second-hand-hi-fi-reviews-and-were-to-find-the-...

So much mumbo jumbo about how expensive DAC's are waste of money, its just changing a box blah blah. Stop talking out of your arses and give the OP some constructive advice.

OP, i have heard a handful of £1000 region DAC's. I can recommend the Metrum Octave MKi, it is one of my favourite of all time, analogue and wet sounding. if you get what i mean... currently its steal price at £600, since MKii is coming out. but there's nothing major change from MKi and MKii, just the additional option of a USB input. You can read the Metrum Octave review from 6moon.

You could always spend £30-£40 on a hifimediy usb dac, see how you like Computer audio, it might sound great to you (needs 100hrs run in).

Take a punt on a Wiliang Dac7/9, Aune T1 or any of the other numerous DACs mentioned on places like head-fi. Just put some links in another post.

Xindak / Cayin (not heard) are also good tube options, lampizator (not heard) is supposedly the best like much in Poland.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MUSE-HiFi-PCM2704-USB-to-S-PDIF-Converter-DAC-...

Super - only £17.