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Pioneer LX82 and Music

Hi

I currently own a Pioneer LX82 AV receiver, Kef XQ one speakers and REL R-series sub.  

While this all sounds fantastic for movies I have never really been able to get the sound I want for music.  

I am looking to get a night club feel with some heavy bass but the LX82 does not seem to use the sub for music.

Am I doing something wrong or is this a limitation of the LX82?  

If so what would you recommend for good movie and hi fi sound?

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Do you have the high-level input connected on your Sub?

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

If you use the amp in pure direct it only uses the main L&R you dotn want this

 

To get it to use the sub just use it in stereo - I would also select for Stream Direct to be on as it improves the sound.

Can de done on the remote or front panel

 

I would also select ATT to be on - check when you listen to music - if you see a red OVER flash up then you are overloading the A to D convertor in the amp.

Slide down the flap on the remote and hit the button that says ATT - then turn the volume up (instructions from LX83 but likely the same :)You will find a cleaner sound that once you give the volume a boost will be better, with much less harshness / distortion.

I think thats where most people go wrong with the pioneer digital amps and say they are bright

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

ellisdj wrote:

I think thats where most people go wrong with the pioneer digital amps and say they are bright

Check the latest issue of What HiFi (Pioneer LX86 review). You'll of course have the said issue!  Smile

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

I have read it as I am in it Cool

Still stand by the comments I wrote above especially RE the ATT setting - the amps soudns harsh with that not on as there is overloading. This is only the case in stereo mode but I have found that's the best setting for music, despite the unwanted digital conversions and processing 

 

This has been true of about 5 or 6 different analogue sources I have tried on the LX83 and LX85 - so probably all of them.

I can lower the source inout voltage on my Meridian and it stops it, but thats a rare option with a cd player etc

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Having owned an 82, 83, and 85, I can hand on heart say that I have never once found them to sound bright, and I haven't even needed to use the X-Curve facility to lower the HF level. If anything, I found with the 85 that I had to up the treble by 2dB to give it a little more bite when I was using R300's. Even with M&K S150's I never had an issue with brightness.

I'll be honest - I never really got on that well with that XQ series - I just don't think they were that well balanced. Maybe that combo just isn't working. Check your menus and make sure there's no "auto" or "adaptive" features switched on. Switch them all off.

Many receivers will disable the sub when in Direct mode, so you'll need to use it in stereo mode. The downside here is that any EQ applied by the auto set up will still be effective, which you don't really want when playing two channel music (personal preference of course).

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

I think in an ideal situation you would use the av receiver in pure direct or similar with no processing - however I don't think they cut the mustard that way

Even though there is processing and you can hear it the best sound from my lx83 is in stereo mode using the sub, I wish it wasn't but it is. In this instance there is a sacrifice of depth of soundstage for clarity and balance - however I don't think many if any av receivers will give a true 3d soundstage like a quality stereo amp.

i do have my sub setup very well with eq on it - anti mode which makes a Huge difference to the bass especially for music, a sub setup badly ruins music as its all you can hear 

To the op try biamping, try in stereo mode (stream direct on), make sure you have setup mccac properly I find mccac sets the sub 3db hot so that should give you the Club bass impact you are after - Make sure you have your sub setup well otherwise you won't be getting the pumping bass you want - it will either be moding or a null depending

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

I did a demo yesterday with an RX6av package on the end of an LX72 and music was sounding great streaming from our NAS drive (Rip-N-Play). I used Direct without the sub.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Its a shame we are not closer, I could happily spend some time with you and we could go over things re all discussed in this thread.

 

I would love to hear your great sound and see if its the same as mine.  Is you demo room acoustically treated ?

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

ellisdj wrote:
Its a shame we are not closer, I could happily spend some time with you and we could go over things re all discussed in this thread.

I would love to hear your great sound and see if its the same as mine.

Anytime Smile

 

Quote:
Is you demo room acoustically treated ?

Nope. It's a 500 year old building, so it is timbre framed, suspended floor (quite bouncy!), and no solid walls at all. I know there would be benefits to get them treated, but I feel that differences between equipment can be heard regardless of what the room sounds like. If we treated our rooms, and we told anyone who came for demo, they would more than likely feel we were 'cheating'. It is surprising though how many people assume our rooms are treated (even though there's no visual evidence of anything that looks like room treatment).

As it stands, everything I have taken home has sounded much better than in store. I think people would appreciate that more than being a little disappointed that it didn't sound as good as in our demo room. Having non treated rooms doesn't seem to affect sales - I presume because, as I mentioned earlier, differences can be heard in any room.

DavidF @FrankHarveyHiFi, Coventry.

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Hi David

 

I have to hand it to you - I was wrong about the Pioneer LX83 needing all its tech to sound good - I was very wrong in fact.

I have just managed to get it to sound like a good HiFi amp for the first time and I am extremely impressed!!

I had written it off but its just won me back over Dance 4

 

How did I do this - by turning everything off and improving my seating position / room acoustics

I am 80% of the way through acoustically treating my room which has made as much diference as spending prob more than £5k on system components for about £200 + £1500 for a new sofa but I am not counting that. 

Moving my seating position off the back wall has made a dramatic improvement and being closer to equal distance to what the speakers are apart has as well, before I was more than double the distance away as they are apart 

 

I am still running the amp in stereo mode (with stream direct on) so still crossing over at 80htz and using my sub.

Back to the amp settings - After hearing true HiFi in the what Hifi test room I knew what I wanted at home from the sound of my kit - I wasnt getting it even with the very expensive system components I own, I wasnt even getting close.

After talking to Ket and reading a white paper written by Meridian on room eq I decided to flatten my eq for all freqs below 250htz as recommended by Meridian, these guys know their stuff. !

I have my cousin to thank for the second improvement - he has already done his room treatments and encouraged me to turn full band phase control off - that has improved the sound no end - there is much better treble and everything is far more organic and less processed sounding - far more hifi sounding

Lastly I turned off standing wave correction - which is good is some ways bad in more so its better off in my case.

**  I know I have posted a lot about these Pioneer settings / tech and how good they are, but its a learning curve for me too - if you sit in a very bad spot in your room acoustically these settings can help with movies and music but its not going to give the overall best sounding solution, sorting out the acoustics and seating / speaker position is the best option by far**

 

I am still in testing mode and still need to make an acoustic panel or 2 more before I am done but I wanted to post about my experiences!

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Hi ellisdj, Followed you Pioneer testing with interest in the past.

Can you link to the Meridian white paper you mentioned.

 

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Of course mate

 

http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Room_Correction_prt.pdf

 

If you google meridian room correction its the first one Smile

 

If you are following me - look into what I have said about room acoustics - its made such a difference to the sound I am getting.

I didnt think I could ever get sound this good in stereo from the LX83 - dont get me wrong there is obviously better, but I am seriously impressed by what I am now hearing.  My source is medium high end Meridian MC200 Feeding MS600, Speakers MA GX100.

 

A point to note - I am using the fixed variable input of the Meridian MS600 at -6db.  This is not an option on most sources so the other option is to use the Pioneer ATT - slide the remote panel down and I think its button 1 - ATT needs to be on otherwise you overload the D?A chip - a red over flases up if you are and you will hear distortion

People that say MA and Pioneer dont go have got it very wrong - bot tryign to offend or start a debate, just a comment

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

ellisdj wrote:

Of course mate

 

http://www.meridian-audio.com/w_paper/Room_Correction_prt.pdf

 

If you google meridian room correction its the first one Smile

 

If you are following me - look into what I have said about room acoustics - its made such a difference to the sound I am getting.

I didnt think I could ever get sound this good in stereo from the LX83 - dont get me wrong there is obviously better, but I am seriously impressed by what I am now hearing.  My source is medium high end Meridian MC200 Feeding MS600, Speakers MA GX100.

 

A point to note - I am using the fixed variable input of the Meridian MS600 at -6db.  This is not an option on most sources so the other option is to use the Pioneer ATT - slide the remote panel down and I think its button 1 - ATT needs to be on otherwise you overload the D?A chip - a red over flases up if you are and you will hear distortion

People that say MA and Pioneer dont go have got it very wrong - bot tryign to offend or start a debate, just a comment

Many thanks.

And yes MA and Pioneer can exist together.

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

Hello, thanks for the link to the Meridian document, it is very interesting.  However, I am not sure that I would not know how to apply any of the recommendations.  It is actually fairly complex.

In my case I have recently bought a new receiver Yamaha A2010 and I have spent more than 2 weeks trying to make it sound right.  The one thing which has made it improve most was to increase the frequencies above 1khz so, I am definetly not following the advise of not touching anything above 200Hz.  I may have to play around with this more but, before I changed these, it sounded flat, boring and dull.

This whole issue to me is related to AV receivers only.  It is a very painful process to make them sound right specially for music.  When I previously had a stereo system, this was not a problem.  I changed house and it sounded fantastic everywhere without need of tweeking.  It sounded great in all the places, in my room, in the livingroom, etc.  Now with the AV receiver it is a different story, this is like rocket sience.  You need to tweek your room, your sofa, the equ settings, levels, your furniture, your dog, make sure that you place your wife in the rithg place before watching a movie and so on... it is ridiculous....

So based on the report it seems tha automatic systems like YPAO are no good (which I agree at least to my ears they are awful), so then what is left for the poor users?  Do we all need degree in electronics in order to purchase modern AV?

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RE: Pioneer LX82 and Music

I can understand your frustration - and you have made some very valid points there, however I think gone a bit over board with the thought process

Rroom acoustics, where you sit in relation to where your speakers are and where you place your speakers will impact the sound you hear regardless of speaker / amplification / source. 

There is a lot online about it and companies selling products - most overlook the impact of room acoustics which is a mistake

 

What Meridian say is that any eq above 250htz interferes with the stereo time domain - however below that i.e. bass region its not so apparent - its a simple as that - the rest is explanation and them talking about their room eq system.  They are 100% right from my recent findings

 

The white paper appears complex, but its not really - it shows in room speaker freq repsonse graphs and waterfalls measured in a software such as Room Equalisation Wizard which you can get for free.  However it is a white paper from a high end manufacturer so you would expect them to know / brag a bit about sound and be able to produce such documents discussing these important topics in technical detail.   Its actually only the basics they are discussing in it.

It may look double dutch at first it used to to me I have self taught from reading and trying to learn.

 

They say any parametric equaliser i.e. YPAO, MCCAC will not work properly for the many reasons they have listed. 

I dont fully agree with that - these systems can definately help improve clarity and help the overall sound in films especially where its not quite so critical - fair play these systems try and make 5+ speakers all firing sound waves into your room sound decent overall - its not easy to do that and what they do achieve is actually very impressive given what I know now, however most rooms have bad acoustics and there is always a trade off.  That trade off does come at a big price to what sound can be achieved when you have better acoustics and all these eq type systems turned off.  Ket taught me that - I asked him about eq systems and his look said it all - dont get me wrong they have their place and do work well to a degree

The idea of these advanced setup systems is to do all the work for you - analyse your room and try and give you a good overall sound - now if you have bad room acoustics, lots of reflective surfaces walls, glass, wood floors etc you will get lots of peaks and nulls in the freq response caused by flutter echo / high reverb time and what these clever systems do is tone down or boost up the system eq to try and compensate - ie. it lowers the closest freq on the equaliser to try and flatten the curve or it raises it.

The result can be a sound you are not used to or dont want - becuase the system has altered things to try make the best of something that is bad.  A stereo amp gives you it all - so you hear the peaks, and dont hear the nulls and probably get used to that sound so you think thats the correct sound and thats what you want

The av amp is taking a lot of that away by trying to improve the sound - its doing more digital processing all the time, which is ideally not what you want so the sound is worsened, at least the stereo amp does very likely no digital processing or analogue to digital conversions for the sound to go through and be worsened

I hope that has helped explain a little bit of why you maybe experiencing what you are - YPAO is trying to compensate for your room acoustics - however it doesnt properly work

Its very hard to explain without sounding condesending writing on a forum - I can explain in more detail but it depends on how important great sound is to you and how far you are prepared to go to understand things / how much you care - I dont mean any of those last words in a bad or critical way - please dont read them like that - more ofd a question?

 

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