Hi Cno. I agree with the others in this thread that have said you're a very nice and friendly chap, so I hope you don't take offence to what I have to say, it isn't intended to cause any
I welcome any reasoned response, and its a perfectly sensible POV.
I feel that "expectation bias" is often used as a one sided weapon, to call into question the opinion of someone who hears differences in cables.
On many occasions, when I was expecting an improvement and didn't get it, or wasn't expecting an improvement, but did...."expectation bias" was thus doing the opposide of what it should have done.
The internet is like the Bible, in the sense you can back up any viewpoint you like, including the fact that cables can make a difference.
IMO For someone to have a credible opinion, they need to have experimented for themselves...as its all too easy to "know" the absolute truth, because you've only concentrated on one side of the debate, without ever questioning it, or trying it out for themselves. This is far from a cut and dried case, as I suspect well over half the forum can hear the benefits.
Given your anti-cable stance, may I ask what cables you've compared, with what kit and in what circumstances?
Anyone that comes on and talks positively about cables usually gets jumped on, so why would anyone believe the pro case over the anti one? In fact the anti case is usually put in a "no room for error" fashion, whereas the pro side is usually put in a "try it and see" way.
I have no intention of getting sucked into another polemic debate....If you want to prove me wrong, go and listen to some Vertere cables and report back with your findings.
"Everything has been said before, but since nobody listens we have to keep going back and beginning all over again." André Gide
You say on the one hand that the point about differences vs improvements is a valid one, yet what you are saying ultimately boils down to a 'golden ears' argument. You are not saying these were mere tonal changes but bring improvements in fairly objective ways and would do so with any system. Your suggestion that others should listen then is not predicated on the basis that the cables may not have this positive effect in another system but that someone else may be so cloth eared in comparison to yourself that they may not hear these (to you obvious) differences.
I think you are over analyzing it. It's as simple as this - I heard a sound that I did my best to describe. If I have tickled your curiosity go and listen, if not, don't.
If you do go and can't hear the difference, I envy you, as I wish I didn't, as life would be much simpler (and cheaper).
You will never get a proper answer to this, until you take what you think you know, and challenge it, by trying it for yourself. If you hear a worthwhile difference, it has to be there, as you have a very ingrained negative expectation bias...whether you would have the stomach to come on here and admit it, is another matter entirely.
Hi Cno, Whenever I demo some products or components, I always challenge my ears and not the product itself
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The ABX thing has been done to death and I'm sure Cno will politely refuse. You make a good point about responsibility tho. Cno defends his position saying that he's just suggesting products and people should listen for themselves. It seems only right to me that the same people who might happen across the thread be given the warning that it may all be a trick. As long as it's all kept polite and friendly, Cno might even not disagree with that
I completely agree, with one proviso - both sides should state that it is a matter of opinion rather than fact.
The whole point of listening, is to decide if the likes of me are "off their rocker" or not.
Every time I recommend any product, I'm putting my neck on the block...so I try to pick products that I believe are worthy. When I get challenged, it is usually by people who haven't heard it.
I've heard that line so many times, you can do better than that Cno. Again, it just boils down to you've got golden ears and if I can't hear the difference then I have cloth ears. If this was coming from someone other than you, I would probably accuse them of arrogance.
Well I've tried lots of different cables in my system, which I consider pretty revealing, from the generic / pro cables I use now to those costing several hundreds of pounds. I am content not to do any further cable demoing.
Actually it's not as simple as that.
I'm sure I would, it's an anonymous forum I think I'd feel like a born again Christian tho... However, as I said in an earlier post I can't see myself having time for such demos for many a year.
HiFi / A/V / Bedroom
We've had a similar debate before; this is akin to creationists wanting their views to be given equal footing with evolutionary theory. Those who say there is no difference are entitled to say (i) no ABX test has ever been passed (a fact, and a significant one), (ii) there is no scientific explanation for these purported differences. I would much prefer if you didn't try to make it a subjective v subjective debate; surely everyone would benefit if the 'believers' balanced things out by bringing something objective to the table?
Actually, that's not what I'm trying to say at all (or would ever even mean to imply); in fact I'm saying the opposide....I don't even believe in golden ears. I'm saying that with the right product, you are more than likely to hear the difference.
As it stands your findings re cables are unsubstantiated, and thus your advice re the same misleading, even though it's well meaning.
Isn't that more or less what I said to you . Your opinion would be extremely credible if you successfully passed a blind ABX test of cables. If you didn't (I don't believe anybody has to date) then you'd have a different opinion, one backed by science, but still very credible, you'd know the truth, and you'd probably subsequently save many people from wasting hard earned money.
It's pretty much what you said to me, but I wanted to show it works both ways. You want me to pass an ABX test and I want you to listen to the product I'm commenting on.
All assesments of whether a sound may be good or pleasing to an individual, is unsubstantiated....all reviews that that are in WHF or on this forum are unsubstantiated.....which is why personal experimentation is key.
this is akin to creationists wanting their views to be given equal footing with evolutionary theory.
With respect, the analogy may be a little inapt. There's compelling evidence that creationism is nonsense, since DNA mapping, carbon dating, etc., prove unequivocally that creationist theories (at least those claiming God created man in His image, or making absurd assertions about the Earth's age) have no basis whatsoever.
What we don't have, however, is a scientifically precise method of measuring sound quality. In fact, our methods of measuring sound remain crude. I'd be intrigued to read a report of audio equipment and cable tests using sophisticated measuring devices (something akin to a spectrophotometer, albeit for sound). I'm not aware of any such tests or appropriate equipment, though I'm happy to be corrected and may be entirely naive in this regard.
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Furniture and Accessories: BLOK Classix 3000 Oak AV Cabinet; Atacama Nexus 6 (atabite metal filled); 3D3 A1112
This is not the same as the creationist debate, as cables haven't conclusively been proved to make no difference.
Anyway, I'm out of this, so goodnight and good luck.
But if personal experimentation is key, why won't you do an ABX test? I've tried various speaker cables and heard no differences, but I'd also happily do an ABX test, I seek the truth, not my truth.
People who buy based on the so called truths dished out by other people, often end up disappointed, hence the need to experiment.
I'm happy to agree to disagree
People who buy based on the so called truths dished out by other people, often end up disappointed, hence the need to experiment. I'm happy to agree to disagree Cno
So I bid you goodnight
I will be happy to give these cables an audition at the first opportunity when they become available in the shops.
Would you be willing to take part in a blind ABX test with mains cables? (and if not why not?)
An ABX test doesn't show which cable sounds the best. The test would simply show whether or not you could hear any difference at all.
PC > AVI Neutron Five 2.1
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