I think everyone would agree there is a faililing of the system...it alows people to ''choose'' to live their lives dependant on benefits.Working families should have their income topped up to help with essential bills and childcare(although they chose to have the bloody kids)i don't mind even paying a little extra towards this.
But for those that abuse a great system( and those that just need guidance in living a worthwhile life),the cost of policing is nothing compared to what the state is already paying interms of the benefits they recieve...the intervening agencies,the cost of sending police to their address to deal with anti-social behavour etc etc.You find out what percentage of crime is commited by people out of regular employment.How much does it cost to deal with them...?
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If i may i'd like to give a liitle example.
Last friday i spoke to one of our housing estate officers.
The association i work for has set-up a small fencing business,employing those tenents that are long term unemployed.
She told me that a father of three,who was basically a sudo alchaholic was a complete changed man...after just one month of regular work.
To my mind i would say that guy had found some self-worth.
This too me this is were our welfare state is heading.It is not just about how much money and who is entitled to it,it is about helping people to help themselves.
What do they say''give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day,teach him how to catch fish and he'll eat everyday''
when evidence however anecdotal is produced which contradicts my views, I re-examine and sometimes modify them - what do you do?
I wouldn't know, it's never happened.
What has 'never happened'?
There has never been any evidence to contradict your views?
Or... you've never re-examined or modified your views, despite contradictory evidence?
Or you've never re-examined or modified your views, despite contradictory evidence?
I haven't seen any evidence to contradict my views.
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Thanks. I thought it was that one.
Always glad to oblige.
Not sure I was ever entirely off – just taking more of a back seat as I have other things to occupy my time these days, but thanks for the sentiment anyway!
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if I thought mine was a minority viewpoint, I'd probably leave too.
Do you mean that you would exclude yourself from ever making a contribution on the whole forum because other people didn't agree with you on one thing in the miriad of things we [try to] discuss on WHF?
If you felt that that topic in particular was more important than the others (and lets face it hi-fi doesn't really fall under the banner of "important") and that your viewpoint was not only not being listened to but was being actively disparaged in a less than polite manner then I can see why someone might feel that this wasn't somewhere they wanted to hangout anymore.
I mean, this is supposed to be "fun" right?
Now you see I just DO NOT understand this. If one has a valid point or ethos that is worthy of that validity, is it not worth standing up and being counted for? How are you ever going to know if, in pure fact, you have a valid point/argument if you run away as soon as someone challenges you robustly.
I never seek to be rude to people [on here] but if I stray a little, is anyone going to die? Of course we should be civil to one another but YOU CAN CALL ME ANYTHING YOU WANT TO, it will not stop me arguing my point. 'Sticks and stones' is the expression and it is true[outside of a concerted bullying campaign], some people really need to grow up AND grow a pair.
And yes T, this is supposed to be fun, but it is good that people can debate, on a Frippery Forum, some of the more important or topical issues. It is good to see how some people deal with the things in life that are more important than the frippery of a new phone/hifi/av blah blah.
Oh and does anyone really believe that they/government/anyone has any idea of the true cost of fiddled welfare. They don't have the first idea.
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I think the point is, just because you're happy for someone to insult you in a forum (or even in real life), not everyone feels that way and would rather just spend their time doing something else more pleasant (and why the hell not - life on this world is pretty short). And (in my view), people should be able to put their point across without someone either actively calling them stupid, or insinuating as such through belittling and patronising language. I'm realistic in that I know we don't live in that world, but that doesn't excuse it when it happens.
The idea of a debate is both sides should actually listen and respect each other's viewpoints, even if they disagree. Most of the time, that doesn't happen and debates generally just seem to descend into who can shout the loudest or who can look the smuggest (especially amongst politicians) whilst not even pretending to actually listen to the counter argument.
That's a fair point Prof, but the problem is that some people seem to believe that their world view is sacrosanct, and that anyone else with a counter view is beyond the pale.
I find that naive and immature at best.
Personally, I'm happy to debate and defend my views with anyone, I don't consider myself so morally superior that those who disagree with me need to be kept at arms length.
I'd imagine many are astounded at that response
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So far :)
Indeed, debate IS a healthy thing... always has been, always will be.
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