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Big question on music streaming

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Craig M.'s picture
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RE: About the mag

Ravey Gravey Davy wrote:

The set up is irrelevant- there were 3 changes- homeplug/wireless/hardwired- and can the invited people hear the difference.

Answer -all three heard differences and preferred different sounds from the 3 options.There aren't "problems",and it isn't a problem solving test.It is an individual preference test based on three people hearing the same system in three different formats.I wish people would stop trying to prove things through statistics and "proven " hardfacts and just accept that different people hear different things.

That thread may have been locked,but the early beautiful post by the prof really said it all about the Big Question approach.he could equally have done the same post about light reception through the eye and its transmission to the brain if the question had been about TVs.It is personal interpretation in this test,not a be all and end all verdict on sound and vision.

you completely missed the point on the locked thread, and again on this one.  there could be an easily avoidable problem in the setup that others would like to avoid.  you wish people would stop trying to prove things with facts?  i wish people would stop interfering with those who would like the facts.

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Andrew Everard's picture
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RE: About the mag

Craig M. wrote:
why would it be an eye opener?  you were listening to three different sources - you would hope they didn't all sound the same.

professorhat wrote:
The only thing you could tell was Ketan was switching something, but whether that was the amp or the source, it was impossible to tell until he revealed it.

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RE: About the mag

Craig M. wrote:

Ravey Gravey Davy wrote:

The set up is irrelevant- there were 3 changes- homeplug/wireless/hardwired- and can the invited people hear the difference.

Answer -all three heard differences and preferred different sounds from the 3 options.There aren't "problems",and it isn't a problem solving test.It is an individual preference test based on three people hearing the same system in three different formats.I wish people would stop trying to prove things through statistics and "proven " hardfacts and just accept that different people hear different things.

That thread may have been locked,but the early beautiful post by the prof really said it all about the Big Question approach.he could equally have done the same post about light reception through the eye and its transmission to the brain if the question had been about TVs.It is personal interpretation in this test,not a be all and end all verdict on sound and vision.

you completely missed the point on the locked thread, and again on this one.  there could be an easily avoidable problem in the setup that others would like to avoid.  you wish people would stop trying to prove things with facts?  i wish people would stop interfering with those who would like the facts.

I think our lines are crossed -I do not have a problem with trying to understand more factually when one person hears differences in two systems,or if there could have been a better way of setting up.  I am referring to three people listening to one set up at the same time with the same output-and they all hear different things.Packet loss is irrelevant.It applies to all three people.The search for facts to prove the differences at that juncture seems to me fairly pointless.

There is of course a completely different discussion to be had on whether the set up could have been different etc( I hesitate to say better because then the argument becomes circular) 

but that is not the point of the Big Question-and as usual it generates more questions than answers but it is after all a fun day .

Craig M.'s picture
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RE: About the mag

Andrew Everard wrote:

Craig M. wrote:
why would it be an eye opener?  you were listening to three different sources - you would hope they didn't all sound the same.

professorhat wrote:
The only thing you could tell was Ketan was switching something, but whether that was the amp or the source, it was impossible to tell until he revealed it.

i'm not sure i understand your point.  i was commenting on the prof saying (if i read it right) that the marked differences between the systems was an eye opener.  maybe if all three sources were connected via, say, optical to a decent dac, and then there were marked differences - that would be an eye opener.  to me anyway.  i'm not sure if the analogue outputs of three different sources sounding different, qualifies.

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Craig M.'s picture
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RE: About the mag

ravey, sorry, your meaning wasn't clear to me from your post.  i understand now, thanks for explaining.

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RE: About the mag

AnotherJoe wrote:
When the laptop streams to the Olive it uses RTSP + UDP as the transport protocol which is susceptible to packet loss - so the 3 may well sound different depending how many packets get lost.
As much as I do not believe the described sound variations can be caused by differences in digital transmission, I do believe you are talking with the wrong side of your body here. If we're talking packet loss, then we're talking about an information gap of typically 1500 bytes. Disregarding UDP overhead (32 bytes) and assuming the source files were uncompressed WAV, we are talking about a 1ms gap. If the source material was compressed, multiply that gap with the compression factor (6-10 for a typical mp3, 2 for flac). Such a gap can not be interpolated without audible defects.

That does not rule out packet corruption though, and you are right, TCP/IP has safeguards against such corruption that UDP does not have. But packet loss is very unlikely.

WinterRacer's picture
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RE: About the mag

As we know UDP is an unreliable transport.  MTU is often set at the 1500 bytes, however this is a maximum, VOIP apps often use smaller packet sizes, no idea what packet sizes are used here, so not sure we can rule out packet loss/corruption and interpolation.

However, despite the above I totally agree that SQ differences perceived are unlikely to be caused by the choice of network connection.  Which is my issue with these articles, that is, for me they don't actually answer the big question they ask.  

Reading this months Big Question, I get the same sense of missed opportunities.

For me, the Big Questions seems more about reinforcing the idea that more expensive is better.  Sad

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Andrew Everard's picture
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RE: About the mag

WinterRacer wrote:
For me, the Big Questions seems more about reinforcing the idea that more expensive is better.  Sad

Whereas of course the fact of the matter is that we have no such agenda, and just report what the BQ participants say.

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RE: About the mag

Andrew Everard wrote:

WinterRacer wrote:
For me, the Big Questions seems more about reinforcing the idea that more expensive is better.  Sad

Whereas of course the fact of the matter is that we have no such agenda, and just report what the BQ participants say.

This edition's BQ gave us the rather uninspiring conclusion that (generally) a highly rated source at a higher price point was better than a highly rated source at a lower price point.  Shock Can't imagine such a test would have been performed with CDPs.

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WinterRacer's picture
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RE: About the mag

Andrew Everard wrote:

Whereas of course the fact of the matter is that we have no such agenda, and just report what the BQ participants say.

 

Apologies then.  As far as I could tell the Linn seemed to be there to show that spending more improved SQ, which didn't appear to be relevant to the article.

To answer the BQ, wouldn't you have been better to keep the variations to a minimum, e.g., CD transport and streamer both connected to the same DAC using the same cables, etc.?

 

I realise you're not conducting a scientific experiment and it's just a bit of fun, but a bit more rigour could help answer these BQs, I'm sure helping your readers.

Sorry if this is negative as I think the BQ is probably the best concept in the mag.

 

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RE: About the mag

WinterRacer wrote:

Andrew Everard wrote:

Whereas of course the fact of the matter is that we have no such agenda, and just report what the BQ participants say.

 

Apologies then.  As far as I could tell the Linn seemed to be there to show that spending more improved SQ, which didn't appear to be relevant to the article.

Odd, seemed pretty clear that it was there to demonstrate the superiority of higher bitrate audio, although obviously there would have been an improvement because the hardware itself was better but there isn't much that could be done about that.